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Should we take the Modern Crusade to Iran?
Yes 17%  17%  [ 6 ]
No 81%  81%  [ 29 ]
Maybe 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 36

skafather84
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10 Sep 2007, 5:03 pm

Macbeth wrote:
Are they bombing you?



yes.



Macbeth
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10 Sep 2007, 5:20 pm

When? When have the Israelis EVER committed a terrorist attack against the Continental USA ever?


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AlexandertheSolitary
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10 Sep 2007, 7:01 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Or after we kick Syria's, Jordan's, and Gaza's booties?


But Jordan is not even currently a threat to Israel, any more than Egypt is; as for faulting democracy assuming that was your issue with Jordan (if its the late Zarqawi's original nationality this seems an even less logical cause for war!) this is hardly a criterion consistently applied; besides, the results of some elections (and there are certainly few in the region!) are not palatable either; no pleasing some people. Revenge for the not so distant past, or perhaps issues with not accepting the Arab Leagues proposed solution, also seems a more than usually insufficient excuse for disregarding prospective death-tolls. The irresponsible foreign policy (an almost laughable if not insulting eupehmism I grant you) of Iran and Syria, is again a criterion that if consistently applied to, for instance the five permanent members of the Security Council of the United Nations.

Besides, surely your nation's army is already in danger of overreach practically speaking (the contribution of my own nation, Australia might be dismissed as inconsequential, mercifully we have not yet had the deaths of your nation, or of the United Kingdom; nor have the deaths of the coalition matched that of civilians within Iraq). I am unclear as to whether you are being sarcastic, or genuinely see any worthwhile goal in further destabilising an already unstable region. You do not even appear to have considered the likely consequences of such a policy for Israel, on whose behalf the proposed action would be ostensibly taken (for starters, the risk of a return to it being indeed the lone Israel against the rest of the region as in past decades would seem to be increased, however unjust it might be to blame Israel for a hypothetical policy of even a close ally. Ahmadinejad is admittedly either unstable or unscrupulously manipulative; his position at home however is not so strong. On the other hand even opponents to the regime would be likely to have solidarity in the event of an invasion, so it would appear to be a singularly self-defeating policy. Furthermore, there are a number of factors likely to render Iran a far more intractible a quagmire than Iraq. I cannot conceive, if indeed you are not being sarcastic, how you can possibly have failed to take into account all these factors. I am confused as to your true motives in writing such ill-considered missives.

As I understand it, most of the Arab regimes are suspicious of Iran's growing influence in the region, the latter at least partially a direct consequence of foreign policy decisions already made. Also some of these regimes are already being armed (even though Saudi Arabia had threatened to step into Iraq should Coalition forces withdraw in order to "aid" - I think this would probably be either arms supplies or training, or. more likely still, mere rhetoric, though it is difficult ot be certain without better information - Sunni militants against Iranian backed Shi'a militias) by the United States, though this seems a confoundedly irresponsible policy.

Please explain what logic has led you to your conclusions.

You also include Gaza in your disparate group. Certainly, however small this area, the current situation there is a real threat to Israel's citizens; even so I am unclear as to why you think the might of the United States Army would be necessary or helpful. I must confess that with regard to Fatah I am rather disillusioned with Mahmoud Abbas/Abu Mazen, whom I had initially been quite naively optimistic about. I cannot help but think that the policies of the international community and of those nearer at hand have unnecessarily contributed to the current calamity of a three-state dissolution, even though the reasons for the position adopted are understandable, though perhaps it is easy to be detached if one has enjoyed security and freedom from fear denied to both the Israelis and the Palestinians.


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calandale
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10 Sep 2007, 7:44 pm

The sun will never set on the
United Statesian Empire!

Wait, didn't others say this kind
of crap?



Macbeth
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10 Sep 2007, 8:05 pm

calandale wrote:
The sun will never set on the
United Statesian Empire!

Wait, didn't others say this kind
of crap?


Yup..

It set.

Well, sort of. I think the British weather got hold of it, and it ended up overcast, with slight chances of rain.


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The_Chosen_One
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10 Sep 2007, 9:20 pm

The main problem I see is that no matter what anyone tries to do in the middle east as far as either invading a country to stop a despot (Iraq), invading a country to overthrow a regime (Taliban in Afghanistan and to capture Bin Laden), or planning on stopping a country developing nuclear weapons so that they won't use them on their neighbours (Iran), by continually allowing Israel to be funded to the hilt and also allowing them to keep their nukes they are only throwing fuel onto the fire. Everyone wants peace over there, and we are mightily sick of hearing about the region day after day, year after year without anything constructive being done to solve it. War is definitely not the answer; Iraq is turning into another Vietnam, and Afghanistan will go the same way. Terrorists don't fight like normal armies, they prefer sneak attacks with suicide bombers and car-bombs. Impossible to stop them by normal means. So trying to pick them off with military force only hurts the innocent civilians that get in the road. Appeasement doesn't work either; look what happened when they tried it with Hitler. That's why I think a total pull out by all countries would be the best idea, and for everyone their to be forced to stand on their own 2 feet. If they can't, then let 'em destroy themselves; at least they'll only destroy each other and the rest of us can go on as normal.


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18 Sep 2007, 6:37 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Anubis wrote:
No. Iran is fine. Africa needs intervention the most. Intervene in Zimbabwe, Sudan, and send troops to help secure Somalia.


Helping those people would be good to do, maybe the UN should get off its lazy but?
But who supplies most of the funding for the UN? The good 'ole USA of course. There are so many "forest fires" breaking out all over the world that there isn't enough funding to go around.


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Nambo
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18 Sep 2007, 4:36 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Or after we kick Syria's, Jordan's, and Gaza's booties?


Hitler would have been proud.



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18 Sep 2007, 6:17 pm

I like Iran and Iranians, and I don't think the USA has any business messing with them as it will only be to serve big business.
Why should anyone fear Iran? even if they have nuclear weapons I think they will be less of a threat to stability than Israel, the USA, the USSR, or China...
If we look at who has been the most aggressive in the region both Israel and the USA have been more aggressive than Iran.
If the US goes into Iran I think you will find the 'problem' of 'terrorism' will escalate as it is the resort of people who refuse to cede to their enemies and continue their perceived 'struggle' by any means necessary.
Personally I am sick of US aggression in order to secure 'US hegemony' so NO you most certainly should not make yet another unprovoked attack on a country that has resources desirable to your corporate elite on whatever pretext short of Iran invading the US.
I have said it before but the greatest threat to world peace comes from the USA both militarily and culturally and it is about time the US learned to play nice because pretty much no-one ever wants to play with bullies except wannabe bullies.
peace j


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monty
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18 Sep 2007, 6:38 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:
Why should anyone fear Iran? even if they have nuclear weapons I think they will be less of a threat to stability than Israel, the USA, the USSR, or China...


I've been saying something like that for a while, and now the retired US General formerly in charge of the Middle East theatre has spoken out and agreed with me.

Quote:
Abizaid: World Could Abide Nuclear Iran

By ROBERT BURNS – 20 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — Every effort should be made to stop Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons, but failing that, the world could live with a nuclear-armed regime in Tehran, a recently retired commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East said Monday.

John Abizaid, the retired Army general who headed Central Command for nearly four years, said he was confident that if Iran gained nuclear arms, the United States could deter it from using them.

"Iran is not a suicide nation," he said. "I mean, they may have some people in charge that don't appear to be rational, but I doubt that the Iranians intend to attack us with a nuclear weapon."



Article Source



RedHanrahan
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18 Sep 2007, 9:49 pm

Thanx Monty, nice to see we are in the same chapter at least, lol.

Something I think a lot of people are overlooking is history and how that leads to Iran's world view.
Iran used to be a mighty empire called Persia, The US has been messing with their affairs ever since they put the Shah in place as a puppet. Now they sit surrounded by US military forces and or client states with a US military presence.
If my country was surrounded by the forces of a nation that had refused to acknowledge my government, sponsored aggressions against it and tried at every turn to make us the pariah dogs of the global community I would feel a little intimidated and threatened, especially in light of the fact that the US is forever sabre rattling [when not actually threatening me directly].

peace j


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MrMark
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19 Sep 2007, 5:54 am

Macbeth wrote:
What is this? The United States of ADHD ?

Uh, yes.


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preludeman
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21 Sep 2007, 9:48 pm

I think we need to leave Iraq while we still have time.



DrizzleMan
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23 Sep 2007, 7:34 am

Leave the Iranians alone. What's happening in Iraq is bad enough:

http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_detai ... ?NewsId=78


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skafather84
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23 Sep 2007, 3:12 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mScWWtRfGQ[/youtube]



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykd-syzZ4ZY[/youtube]



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ywoLsATW9w[/youtube]



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UIYs2g9X0I[/youtube]



CanyonWind
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23 Sep 2007, 7:29 pm

Moral and ethical considerations aside, I don't think a US invasion of Iran would be the most intelligent move in history.

The US military is kinda busy right now, with two wars going on with no obvious progress.

US military power ain't what it used to be. The nature of warfare has changed, and we haven't developed effective means of coping with these changes.

The US entered World War Two, and four years later two of the most powerful military empires in world history were defeated. In recent years, we haven't been able to win wars with countries nobody could find on a map. How long have we been fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan? How long were we in Vietnam?

So let's see, Iran is about three times the size of Iraq, a lot of Iran is mountainous, reducing the advantages of our mechanized war technology, and Iran has a larger population than Iraq.

I think it's obvious by now that people don't like invading foreign armies very much, and the Iranians don't have the ethnic rivalries that divide up the Iraqis, so they wouldn't be fighting against each other, just against us.

So exactly how do you think we could win a war with Iraq?


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