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KimJ
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08 Nov 2007, 7:35 pm

I know this subject has been discussed, but I scanned 4 pages and didn't find a recent topic. Do your Aspies/auties "lie" or "deny" things when confronted.

This is the issue at hand; my son will confess wrongdoing. He doesn't really fear consequences. He's been punished for wrongdoing that he's confessed. He will still offer these tales.
However, if someone sees him doing something "wrong" and immediately asks/scolds him about it, he denies it. he freaks out over it and it can derail the whole discussion.
His special ed teacher was asked to address this and she asked me about it. I told her what I know but I also want to review how y'all deal with it too.



beauteousday
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08 Nov 2007, 7:45 pm

oh my gosh. I did/do this all the time. When i confess something that i did wrong, i have no problem with it. thats because i can work out what the consequence will be in my head before it happens. But when someone catches me doing something wrong, i used to freak out. That's because i can't prepare myself for the consequence or what is going to happen. I hate surprises, as do most aspies, and if i can't prepare myself for something, i try to change the subject or lie about it, because i know what the consequence for lying is.

does this make any sense?



KimJ
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08 Nov 2007, 7:50 pm

yep :)



Triangular_Trees
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08 Nov 2007, 8:52 pm

Quote:
However, if someone sees him doing something "wrong" and immediately asks/scolds him about it, he denies it. he freaks out over it and it can derail the whole discussion.


If they confront me angrily then yes I'll usually deny it.

Or, and this is a biggy if they accuse me of doing something I haven't done, I stop listening to whatever they're saying and deny it. Someone posted the other day about their son going into a room and throwing a bottle of glue. An adult saw and asked "Why did you go in the room to get the glue and throw it." and the son kept saying "I didn't." He wasn't lying, he didn't go in to the room to get the glue. He just happened to see it once he got into the room.

I've become more aware of this since coming here but honestly the way I see it as if you don't get the first part right, there's no sense in listening to the second part because your bound to have that wrong. So once I'm accused of going into the room to get glue I don't care what else you say. I didn't go into the room to get the glue and if you can't realize that theres no point in discussing anything with you. You have also just shown me that you have made presumptions are willing to start yelling at me for them, which tells me you don't care at all about finding the truth - you just care about having someone to yell at.



KimJ
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08 Nov 2007, 9:22 pm

I can understand that, as you're discussing someone's presumptions about intent and motivation. However, I'm discussing plain action.

Example#1
Pop pushes kid out of line. Monitor asks Pop, "why did you push So and So?" Pop says, "I didn't do it!"
MOnitor, "Yes, I just saw you do it"
Pop, "No, you didn't see me do it, I'm invisible!"

Example #2
Pop uses the bathroom, we know he used the toilet and don't hear the flush nor the sink water.
Me, "Pop, flush the toilet and wash your hands"
Pop, "I did!"
Me, "No, I didn't hear the toilet flush and your hands are dry."
Pop, "I was superfast!"

These are basic but very real examples of Pop's denial process.



Triangular_Trees
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08 Nov 2007, 11:11 pm

Perhaps he's trying to use humor to cope with being attacked (being immediately scolded for his actions could seem like an attack to him)



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08 Nov 2007, 11:17 pm

Both my sons tell the occasional porky, but they do it for different reasons.

The older one, who is Aspie: hates, and I mean HATES, to be thought in the wrong about anything. Usually he goes for plausible deniability, but if he has to twist himself in knots and stand on his head in order to appear blameless, he'll do it.

The younger one, who is not Aspie: has, since starting primary school, become aware that the wool can easily be pulled over Mum's eyes. You know: "I'll put on the sweet innocent angelic look; she'll never suspect a thing." Now that I've caught on to this, he doesn't get away with it quite as much as before.



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08 Nov 2007, 11:23 pm

beauteousday wrote:
oh my gosh. I did/do this all the time. When i confess something that i did wrong, i have no problem with it. thats because i can work out what the consequence will be in my head before it happens. But when someone catches me doing something wrong, i used to freak out. That's because i can't prepare myself for the consequence or what is going to happen. I hate surprises, as do most aspies, and if i can't prepare myself for something, i try to change the subject or lie about it, because i know what the consequence for lying is.

does this make any sense?


What he/she said also applies to me.


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ster
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09 Nov 2007, 6:52 am

my son was the one with the glue incident.......i was going to say that you need to watch how you confront the issue with your aspie~ 2 part questions almost elicit an incorrect response & make it seem like you're lying when you're only responding to one part of the question.
i wonder if some of your son's lying has to do with intention. my son also has trouble telling the truth when he's done something that he didn't intend to do & realizes is wrong. that black and white thinking comes into play and causes an internal struggle (IMO)~ you're a bad person if you do something bad...i'm not a bad person......i didn't do it......



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09 Nov 2007, 8:57 am

KimJ wrote:
I know this subject has been discussed, but I scanned 4 pages and didn't find a recent topic. Do your Aspies/auties "lie" or "deny" things when confronted.

This is the issue at hand; my son will confess wrongdoing. He doesn't really fear consequences. He's been punished for wrongdoing that he's confessed. He will still offer these tales.

However, if someone sees him doing something "wrong" and immediately asks/scolds him about it, he denies it. he freaks out over it and it can derail the whole discussion.
His special ed teacher was asked to address this and she asked me about it. I told her what I know but I also want to review how y'all deal with it too.


I hope if he's punished for things he's confessed, it's not as bad as if he didn't confess. Otherwise, he will see that he is being punished for confessing so of course he won't want to say he's done the "wrong" thing.


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KimJ
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09 Nov 2007, 9:57 am

The point to mentioning that (confessing) is that he continues to do it. Like he's proud of himself or he doesn't have a mental folder for secrets. He only denies wrongdoing when confronted.



Pandora
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09 Nov 2007, 10:25 am

Easy solution - don't confront.


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KimJ
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09 Nov 2007, 10:46 am

Well, when he's screaming in my ear, throwing a hard toy against the wall, abusing the tv, kicking the dog or saying choice 4-letter words at the top of his lungs, I have to confront. It's a part of life, I have to try and teach him that these activities aren't okay.
If he's in school and pushing a kid out of line, talking out of turn, throwing pencils, he has to be corrected.

I did suggest that when Pop is "caught" at school to just deal with the action at hand, and not get caught up in the denial. I don't know if the teacher "heard" that or not. I have to say, it's very frustrating to hear "I didn't do that!" with something I saw with my own eyes. Sometimes he says it before I say anything.



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09 Nov 2007, 9:40 pm

Quote:
If he's in school and pushing a kid out of line, talking out of turn, throwing pencils, he has to be corrected.


You can correct without confronting though. For example, usually if I've warned the class to be quiet in one student it talking to loud, I won't say, "Joe keep your voice down." I'll say, "Joe, can you remind those sitting around you that we need to be quiet." The kid loves it, he hasn't been chastised, and he's given a responsibility. There's only been one time I've done that that it didn't have the desired result and thinking back I believe the child in question had some disruptive behaviorial type issues.

If the shoving in line/throwing pencils isn't an everyday occurence, then when it is seen, the teacher could remind all students in the area that they need to be behave appropriately and that anyone caught throwing pencils or shoving another student will loose their recess. Then only confront if he does it afterward.

if it is an everyday occurence, its too late for that technique to work, but giving him a responsibility such as being the line monitor whose responsibility it is to tell students to push others when he sees it happening is often enough to keep the child from shoving others.



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09 Nov 2007, 10:01 pm

Brilliant ideas, Triangular trees. :)

KimJ, I apologise - of course, kids have to be stopped from yelling in your ear, throwing stuff, and the like. Better to say "stop it right now!" than go into long arguments.

The only thing I'd watch for with stuff at school like shoving in line is that the teacher might only have seen what your son did, not what provoked it. Another child might have shoved him first or insulted him. That's why Triangular Tree's suggestions are so well thought out.


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KimJ
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10 Nov 2007, 12:39 am

I'll have to talk about this with the originating teacher who brought it up. I tried to discuss overlooking the denial/lying aspect in favor of addressing the specific action with the special ed teacher. She didn't seem like she understood what to do with that information. So, the general ed teacher is the one that we need to convince. I guess she's already read my explanation (copy of email).

I understand what the dilemma is on their end. Normally, a kid pushes another kid and gets scolded by the lunch room lady. That kid stops it, somehow acknowledging that he did something wrong. Pop pushes kid in line and gets scolded for it and denies anything happened. Maybe even calls the lady a liar. Or if they stop confronting then the other kids will see Pop "getting away" with it.
We've tried the general warnings to the "crowd" and it sometimes it works and sometimes it backfires. In preschool, one teacher called Pop the "Gestapo" because he was forever scolding other children for "breaking rules" (real or imagined) and not applying the same standard for himself.
Also, apparently Pop's class is really "rambunctious" will a lot of IEPs and unrecognized special needs. Pop often gets caught up with the worst behavior (because he mimics). So, the teachers are often doing that general warnings to the class for quite a while anyways.

The absolute best thing to request calm body, hands to yourself is by gestures, signs. Are they willing to go that far for Pop at school?