my problems with islam

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richardbenson
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20 Nov 2007, 4:00 pm

i think what that verse is saying is that muslims believe jesus was put to death on a cross but wasnt crucified. therefore he wasnt dead. when the christians said he rose from the dead

if you have no sacrifice, you have no redemption.

BazzaMcKenzie
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20 Nov 2007, 5:47 pm

richardbenson wrote:

And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of God; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Jesus) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. Nay! God took him up to Himself; and God is Mighty, Wise.

—Qur'an, [Qur'an 4:157]

The prior section of the Koran is explaining that "God sealed their [the Jews] hearts, on account of their unbelief and they killed their prophets unjustly [4:153].

Prior to your quote, it says "They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. They declared "we have put to death ...."

So I think it says that Muslims believe Jesus was not killed.

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nominalist
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20 Nov 2007, 6:07 pm

BazzaMcKenzie wrote:

Prior to your quote, it says "They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. They declared "we have put to death ...."

So I think it says that Muslims believe Jesus was not killed.

That is the most common view of contemporary Muslim apologists. However, it was not always the dominant one. At one time, Muslims acknowledged the crucifixion and argued that Muhammad was referring to their inability to kill the spirit of Jesus.

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richardbenson
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20 Nov 2007, 6:23 pm

you will stop now. the reason the muslims wanted to discredit the crusifiction of jesus is because they think god is one. with no son.

however. when we look at water, it can be in gas, liquid, or solid form.

thus, while i havent been a big supporter of god i can atleast to this, and how 3 can be the same

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20 Nov 2007, 6:29 pm

nominalist wrote:

BazzaMcKenzie wrote:

that's where I start to have a problem, these words are not Muhammad's but the "infallible word of God" and not open to interpretation.

I see the purpose of this section as explaining to the believers what Jews and Christians think, and why they are wrong. Its pretty clear when it says "They denied the truth ..." they declared "... we have put to death ... Jesus ..." and then the Koran states "They did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did."

If the Koran is the "infallible word of God", then how can a Muslim acknowledge the crucifixion when the Koran clear says they did not crucify him

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nominalist
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20 Nov 2007, 6:31 pm

richardbenson wrote:

the reason the muslims wanted to discredit the crusifiction of jesus is because they think god is one. with no son.

The problem is that there is not only one opinion on these subjects among Muslims.

Muslims do not believe that Christ is literally the Son of God. However, some Muslims have no problem using the term "Son of God" provided it is understood in a figurative sense.

richardbenson
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20 Nov 2007, 6:46 pm

nominalist wrote:

The problem is that there is not only one opinion on these subjects among Muslims.

factions. wich means to me i need to look elsewhere to god

nominalist
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20 Nov 2007, 6:52 pm

richardbenson wrote:

nominalist wrote:

The problem is that there is not only one opinion on these subjects among Muslims.

factions. wich means to me i need to look elsewhere to god

As a nominalist, I don't expect people to agree on textual interpretations. IMO, meaning emerges as people encounter texts. It is not inherent. In other words, we do not approach texts as blank slates. We each bring something to the table.

richardbenson
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20 Nov 2007, 6:54 pm

well i think there is black or white. otherwise the son of god would not have died

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20 Nov 2007, 6:56 pm

BazzaMcKenzie wrote:

that's where I start to have a problem, these words are not Muhammad's but the "infallible word of God" and not open to interpretation.

All religious Muslims believe that the Qur'án is the infallible word of God (in some sense). However, not all interpret infallibility (Arabic, 'ismat) in the same fashion. Some would simply say that God's will is conveyed through the Qur'án, not that the Qur'án is factually correct in every detail.

Quote:

If the Koran is the "infallible word of God", then how can a Muslim acknowledge the crucifixion when the Koran clear says they did not crucify him

Because not all Muslims interpret it literally. Many Muslims, like many Christians and Jews, are liberals.

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20 Nov 2007, 7:05 pm

nominalist wrote:

but isn't that totally contrary to how a Muslim would approach the Koran, which they believe to be the word of Allah as given to Muhammad and is complete in itself. This is different to the Christian Bible which is the words of people relating what they observed of Jesus and retelling the parables He said to illustrate His teaching, all of which is open to be interpreted in the context of time and place. The Koran (as read my Muslims) is not open to such interpretation or placing in context.

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richardbenson
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20 Nov 2007, 7:15 pm

here is the deal. the adversary, made up by islam. now im not saying one religion or onther is right.
what i am saying is god dieing for the sh-t that man has done is my personal belief

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20 Nov 2007, 7:39 pm

BazzaMcKenzie wrote:

It is contrary to how traditional Muslims would approach the Qur'án. However, not all Muslims are traditional. A small example:

http://www.pmuna.org/

http://progressivemuslims.tripod.com/index2.html

http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quran1.html

richardbenson
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20 Nov 2007, 7:47 pm

are you a muslim?

nominalist
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20 Nov 2007, 7:50 pm

richardbenson wrote:

are you a muslim?

No, but Islám is one of my areas of focus in the sociology of religion. My parents were actually Jewish. However, they were nonreligious, and I don't practice the religion either.

richardbenson
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20 Nov 2007, 8:00 pm

so why do you defend them so? apprently you feel the same way as them.

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