*"Which Church and Why?"*

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I'm not a churchgoing christian.

I did go to a few services but I don't like social christianity. Plus I hate the bit where they demand money of you, always in the middle of the service.

It's often a good idea to stick with the family tradition whatever that was, or go to the nearest one because it's easiest to get to.

What do you mean by "bigger idea"?

In a way i may already have experienced a small but significant part of the "spiritual development"/cognitive growth communicated/referred to in the christian religion, of repentance, gratitude for gift/sacrifice freely made to "save" me, experience of unconditional love for me of the earthly representative ( my body) of an otherwise impersonal creator ( "the gene", which is how i saw god at that time, when i thought of him/it at all.)

After the brief "out of body" exp. described above I spent 13 years in a fairly permanent state of penitence, expiation, devoted attention, and self denial; healthy diet and exercise and sunlight and longer and longer periods of no smoking, etc, aswell as laboured consideration for others, with a window on compassion which i had never had before; an appreciation of the fact that people hurt, for real. Including me.

Doesn't the bible have jesus say that he is "the way", well the way to what?

If my experience, deeply moving, transforming, and teaching of compassion, 15 years ago, in which i saw my body as a beaten and abused animal which had done everything it could for me, did everything i asked of it, for which i suddenly found myself weeping, tears which my hands then gently wiped away and which i kissed in love and gratitude, was anything like that which people experience in connection with belief in jesus according to the bible then perhaps it was the cognitive illumination/crack in the wall which set me on the path to believing in god, a cognitive act i was incapable of, and completely uninterested in, ( it meant nothing to me) 16 years ago.

It did however produce noticeable tendency in me towards authoritarianism, extremism, and intolerance. Like christianity seems to so often.

Did you mean christianity with "bigger idea"? Why? I'm interested. Because at same time as seeing that "moment" as over, in the past, and close to dangerous in its effects, i can't help but recognise its crucial importance in later developments. (The mysteriousness of its origin has always impressed me too).

PS: So far found no non-catholic nor protestant places of worship or meeting within reach. Nearest is at 75 km. But perhaps that doesn't matter if see my out of body experience/"moment of grace", as i used to call it, as my christian "bit".

Ouion...I was raised in the church (protestant,but only a few generations away from catholic),so my whole point of view of people and the world was askewed from the start.(I had always assumed everyone else wanted to "play fair" in life.)As time passed i began to learn about ideas such as ulterior motives and delusional leverage(dowright trickery).So i had a alot of confusion for many years over "what was right".

So i studied the meanings and roots of all the religions i could find,as well as the symbols used by them(and all other symbols seen elsewhere as well)

My own perspective on the religions of the world is now one of semantics...Either nobody knows..or somebody did at one time,and nobody has understood it correctly since then.

The bigger idea i spoke of is in referance to what i believe to be the truth about what really happened..I'm of the opinion that Jesus(either the man or the ideal)is the story(covered up a bit)of a man that knew(and was taught to use)about trickery...but decided to expose it(due to his own conscience)...so he then had to be silenced for it...Why?..."the show must go on"(money).

Which would make the story of Jesus a story of ultimate morality(with add ons from tricksters to further down those with morals)


On another note...I've recently told my own family that i didn't need religion to keep me from being either a thief,a murderer,etc etc.....They didn't get my meaning.
Then just last night i watched a video(on youtube i think)with Richard Dawkins talking about how morality is genetic..and it made alot of sense...Since natural selection dictates our own end product as well as everything else.


...well...that's my take on the matter anyway..for what its worth.

Is the idea of "a personal god" exclusive to the most "modern" protestant churches? Or do people find this idea encouraged in others? How monolithic is the god in which you (reading this right now) believe?
I'm beginning to realise it is crucial that i hold onto the idea of a personal god, otherwise begin to engage in early stages of missionary style, authoritarian religious attitudes.

So which churches are best for that? Which is maybe similar question to the one which started a thread a bit back called something like " which religions most allow/encourage creativity to flourish ?".

It also makes me wonder what point there would be in going to church at all. Why DO people go to church? It begins to seem seriously suspect as activity. as suspect as the label autism in fact.

Last edited by ouinon on 29 Jan 2008, 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

I am leaning toward Unitarianism myself.

Church, first of all, my reaction to the subject in general is Aaarg! I have been frustrated and hurt by the church all my life. I have attended many different types of churches and I have only found one where I felt totally at home. It is a specific small Episcopal church in Austin, Texas where people are free to be what they are and believe whatever they do without suspicion or coercion and respect each other despite any differences. The priest always gives intelligent sermons that are never politically charged. His criticisms always cut sharply both ways, left and right. The service is formal but not impersonal. I don't feel pressured into socializing unless I really want to socialize. Beyond the service itself, I love that they are more interested in putting food in peoples' mouths and clothes on their backs than in necessarily converting them. I have never been to another church like it. It breaks my heart not to be able to go to that church anymore. I don't think churchs' denominational differences matter as much as their individual differences. Just because I liked that specific Episcopal church does not mean that I presently like my local Episcopal church. In fact, I rather despise my local Episcopal church. So... what I'm getting at is... I think finding a good church is rare. Don't get your hopes up, but don't be totally hopeless. Look at the church itself not the denomination.

Indeed. Actually quite well said, you summarized my thoughts exactly. Catholicism has understood better than any modern religion: presentation. The aesthetics of it give a better taste of holiness and the divine than any Protestant sect.

Thank you very much for your post, spdjeanne. It makes more sense to me today than it would have done just a week ago. i really see how in a sense denomination etc is best kept irrelevant; that it is the individual nature of an individual church/parish/group which is more important to a "person" inescapably in an individual body. As Paul says don't be saying "i belong to so and so and so". So i get that. I will try them both out, the two in the village. And see how it goes.
Any church where there is, as you say, an atmosphere of tolerance towards people's different relationships with god, who meet to support each other in that , would do nicely!!

Best of luck!

Some things to consider, if the God of the Bible is true, then there is also a Devil who wants you to worship him, rather than the God of Creation.

The Bible tells us this world is in the power and authority of Satan, until Gods Kingdom comes.

Therefore, you have to be most suspitious of any religion to see which God it actually is worshipping in case you are being mislead for ; "Satan turns himself into an angel of light in order to mislead, if possible, even the Holy ones".

Jesus gave many warnings as well in his parables such as the weeds being sown by the Devil in amongst the field of Gods Wheat.
Jesus said about the last day, that many would come to him and he would say to them, "get away from me you workers of lawlessness, I never knew you".

So, which religion?

The original "Religion" of God was the Jews, they where chosen by God as a result of Abrahams willingness to offer up his son Issac, so God promised a Holy race to come from his lions, that is why Judaism isnt spread in the way Christianity is, but is genetic.

By the way, Abrahams willingness to offer up his son to God was blessed by Gods willingness to offer up his son Jesus who would half arrive through the Abrahamic bloodline.

Not to say though, that only Jews worshipped God, look at the likes of Noah, Job and Abraham himself, so individuals could worship God, but Judaism was the first religion.

Now Christianity when it arrived, was initially only open to the Jews as they had been given the promise, many Jews followed the fullfillment of thier prohets foretelling of the Christ, but many put thier religion above worship to God which is a fault to be found in all religions and all will be tested to see where thier loyalties lie.
After 3 1/2 years God opened up Christianity to the Gentiles.

Jesus though had warned of "the Great apposticy", this was when Human Governmnets started to use Christianity for thier own purposes and contaminated it by mixing it with all the pagan religions, thats why the word Catholic means unity, thats why there appears to be so many similarities between "Christianity" and paganism.

The Catholic Church claims that all the pagan idolitry and rites have been "sanctified", that is cleaned, but if something clean touches something unclean, it itself becomes unclean

Haggai 2

HAG 2:11 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ask now the priests concerning the law, saying,

HAG 2:12 If one bear holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt do touch bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any meat, shall it be holy? And the priests answered and said, No.

HAG 2:13 Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean.

HAG 2:14 Then answered Haggai, and said, So is this people, and so is this nation before me, saith the LORD; and so is every work of their hands; and that which they offer there is unclean.


Unlike the God of the Jews, and the God of Islam, (they where after all Brothers, hence worship of the same God but in differnat ways). who knew God to be a Single Mono God unlike the Trinity Sun gods of Egypt and Babylon, Christianity today has been appostocised to worship the Trinity Sun god by saying Jesus is God rather than as Jesus himself said, that he is the son of God.
No wonder they worship his birthday on the birthday of the sun.

They dont even try particularily hard to hide it from you who they are actually worshipping.



Untill I find a religion that worships the God of the Jews but still acknowledges Jesus as the King and high priest in the manner of malkiserdeck (SP?) I will seek a relationship with God purely through the Bible until he reveals the Children of God and the two witnesses in the last day.

Well, having worked out that the most important thing about a church to me is that it should be supportive , i haven't been yet to either the catholic or protestant ones in the village.

It is such a small village, 2,500 inhabitants, and with such a history of religious turmoil in the apparently not so distant past, that church attendance is a very public declaration of allegiance. And wavering between the two might not go down well either.

The catholic mother of a boy who goes to the same fencing group as my son, who moved here two years ago, told me that there is the most awful established conflict between the "two sides", because some people remember grandparents who lost land or family in the fight for religious domination of the region. And that she has had to actively keep her distance from the hostilities. Which extend to social life/invitations etc.

Apparently some people still do not talk to each other after generations because of oppressions suffered during the power struggles. Confiscations, even demolitions of buildings. Public humiliations. Commercial injustice. Whole neighbourhoods are often staunchly one or the other faith. For example, the poorer houses on the northern side of the High street against the cliff/hill have tended to belong to the catholics, and the bigger, more gracious houses on the southern side with gardens down to the river to the protestants!

The region is unusual in being one of the few areas of france with any strong protestant tradition. And as i don't have any strong feelings either way at the moment i think i'm going to wait until i know more or have a better reason to choose one over the other.

I think i am just going to ask this mother more questions for the moment. ( why do you go to church? why are you catholic rather than protestant? and whether there is any less formal meeting for support and exploration of religious faith, a bible discussion group or something).

Last edited by ouinon on 11 Feb 2008, 11:48 am, edited 3 times in total.

I dont go to church at all