Aspie with high IQ but can never produce any written work

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Hi
My 13 year old son has just been diagnosed as being 'Aspergery' at a second opinion appointment this week after two years of trying to find why high school is such a problem to him, especially as we had no problems when he was in junior school, just the usual complaints from time to time that he was being silly in class distracting the other children.

At an Ed Psych assessment he came out as being very intelligent with an IQ of 123 yet this boy cannot organise himself at all to produce any written work even on a PC. My son doesn't read and is very lethargic (I think he has ADD and maybe Asperger's as well) he seems to respond best to one on one situations, so we are going to try getting him some extra tuition out of school.

He never appears to want to do anything even his guitar he enjoys his lesson but then it sits waiting for another week before he picks it up again. He is fairly sociable but doesn't need to be with other kids all the time, he gets very anxious if he has been in school for more than a couple of days and behaves in a very immature way, and aims it mainly at me (wouldn't dream of being so silly infront of his dad) he always holds it together in school but has been known to either mimic or shout out random words.

My son also has no sense of time, it can take him ages to get ready and waking him of a morning is like trying to wake the dead. He also has problems getting off to sleep he seems to get a second wind come bed time.

Does anyone recognise these behaviours in their children. I would be interested to hear from people whose children have been diagnosed with Aspergers and ADD.

Doesn't sound that much like Asperger's to me, but definitely ADD, which is similar in Aspie kids. ADD: it is so tough ! !! Even as an adult - I have far more practical issues having ADD than having Asperger's at the age of 34.

My suggestion is to really help him with regards to schedules and discipline. What helps is to be super organised and neat. E.g. guitar: practising should not be optional, he should have a set time every day which he spends doing a set routine of exercises and pieces, as discussed with his teacher. Doing written assignments - I love this guy's pep talk for creative writing, and it is also applicable to all types of writing:

So, he will need your help. Sit with him. Search for the thoughts that he wants to write, then help him write that first word, the first sentence. The first paragraph. The first page. You can't write it for him, but you can help him see that he can do it, if he puts himself down on a chair in front of a computer, and just write what is in his mind. Chances are he wants to do it perfect, so he doesn't do it at all: that is just something he will have to learn. Rather a very imperfect assignment handed in on time than no marks.

Good luck.

You to a large degree just described (partly) me. It's only, roughly, around my join date that I started to write. I read a lot at his age but it wasn't what "they" thought I should be and even that wasn't the way (or why) most read. It would be too long to go into here, why I was that way and again to a degree still am. I'll send you a link for something I just wrote about this. I'd also be willing to bet his IQ is a lot higher then what "they" think. At one point the ADD family was being looked at for me too.

I'd say his main problem is lack of motivation. I had the exact same problem, and nothing worked until I dropped out of college, worked a sh***y job for a year and a half, and went back to college absolutely determined to do better. My problem was with writing, and I spent the first 20 years of my life simply avoiding it. I managed to make it through high school hardly writing anything, always taking the courses that required the least writing. But when I decided to learn it, I did, and it wasn't even difficult, but it did take that motivation. It's interesting that your son and I don't have this problem with any other subjects, I think because they're more automatic. Historical and scientific facts can be memorized and math can be learned, but writing just takes something a little different, something that can't exactly be forced in the same way.

I can't really recommend anything on how to motivate your son, as he seems to simply be a naturally laid-back person. But to make him generally less lethargic you can try anti-depressants, exercise, vitamin supplements, or just generally keeping him busy. I took anti-depressants briefly and they helped me get up in the morning, but didn't do too much else. The rest should at least give him more energy, but they won't necessarily help him be motivated on his academics. On the bright side, I'm sure he's capable of learning to write, and it's very likely that eventually he'll be motivated by perhaps wanting to impress a girl, or by his friends' success and not wanting to be left behind, or by finding some other goal he really wants.

On the outside it looks like I'm lazy or unmotivated. I've never been either in my entire life. You ever have brain race so bad, not just a little, that all the shiny things just keep you going in about 50 different directions, seemingly at once? My hand wouldn't go fast enough, distracted by spelling and yeah I know after you write it, but that isn't the way it works because it's another distraction. If I stopped to fix anything or even stay at that one spot in the writing to make it more coherent, my brain forgot where I was going. It is/was frustrating. My lateral thinking would lead me in directions that didn't fit the mainstream for my age, it looked whacked out, for lack of better terms. But I understood it. It was very early on, after more then a few times of being made an example in front of the class on how not to do it, that I figured out don't do it, it hurts. School was not a pleasent place and it is still the one reoccurring nightmare I still have. People tried to make me fit their ideas of what I should be and do.

I have to wake a full 2 hours before I have to do anything I am just hopeless at organising myself.
As for my written work mine was either very short or non existent.
I hated it, still hate it I just don't just don't think in a way that translates into something I can easily write in words.
How is he with something that interests him and how about drawings and diagrams?

I can honestly say I hated school and when I was 13 I really hated school!

He sounds depressed, considering that these symptoms just showed up. I mean, possible ADD with depression.

My NT instinct was depression. Could that be linked with the stories of the other posters?

Has he had cognitive therapy? That worked with my 9 year old grandson who was very angry, suicidal and constantly melting down.

Hi Nanarob

I think to a degree it could be and would fit my Bipolar comorbid, however.. It didn't and doesn't explain it all, although it might be a consideration, the thing to do is ask. See here's the thing, I couldn't have actually given you a good explanation back then if I was or wasn't. Depression comes and goes and when it was gone, the writing still wasn't there, but the brain race was. Depressed people can write, they might not want to, but they can. I don't know if we're really talking the same thing, is it can't or won't, or both. I know that is a confusing statement. And, just like what is happening now, we're guessing at what is happening inside, by looking at the outside and the results you reach just aren't always true. All I can do is relate my story and perhaps it might fit, be something to be discussed with him in the right setting. I would hope not under the huge amount of anxiety guilt ridden pressure they did it with me, but that wasn't trying to understand what might be going on, it felt like punishment to me and in a very real sense it was. That's the part, that's the important part about understanding your children to begin with. What can be a minor issue when handled that way builds up over time and to be really blunt here, what may have already come down on him with other "minor" things. Are we looking at a cumulative result? If it fits, wear it and then fix it, you didn't know then, but you might know now.

Hello,

I have 2 sons with Asperger's aged 9 and 7. Your son is sounding depressed - have you organised any therapy for him? My sons regularly attend an Autism/Asperger's specialist clinic and this has helped enormously!

Below is some information from a seminar I attended last year. This will help explain your son's difficulties.

Regards
Helen

School Students With Asperger’s

In 2006, Tony Attwood surveyed 238 children and adolescents with Asperger’s Syndrome at his clinic.

Results showed:
• Problems with organizational skills 81%
• Short term memory problems 59%
• Planning problems 78%
• Time management problems 80%
• Impulsive 59%

These are genuine difficulties with a neurobiological basis.

Children with Asperger’s Syndrome have difficulties with Executive Function. They have difficulties with the following:
• Organizational and planning abilities
• Working memory
• Inhibition and impulse control
• Self-reflection and self-monitoring
• Time management and prioritizing
• Understanding complex or abstract concepts
• Using new strategies

Tony Attwood reported children and adolescents with Asperger’s Syndrome need an ‘Executive Secretary’ especially in High School.

The role of Executive Secretary is usually performed by the mother. The Executive Secretary needs to maintain ongoing contact with the High School. The student Asperger’s Syndrome will need help with time management to ensure they complete assignments and projects on time.

Tony Attwood reported at least 75% of children with Asperger’s syndrome also have a profile indicative of Attention Deficit Disorder.

The four components of attention include:
• The ability to sustain attention
• Pay attention to relevant information
• Shift attention when needed
• Encode attention – to remember what was attended to

Strategies to assist with attention difficulties include:
• Relevant information should be highlighted
• Assignments should be broken down into smaller units, in keeping with the child’s attention span
• The teacher should regularly monitor and give feedback to maintain attention
• The amount of environmental distractions should be reduced
• A quiet, isolated work space should be provided

I am a 15-year-old with AS, and this post could easily have been about me. I did very well in elementary school, because it was intuitive. But then, in middle and high school, I had to do more work, and study a lot, and wasn't able to do that, because I never had to do it before. But then I learned to, and now I am doing better.

Got to laugh at this one, I can't cry at it any more.

They just described not getting to go out for school recess for I don't even remember how long now. I don't think I saw but a couple for the entire 5th and 6th grades, that would be 10-11 age wise, I think. Reading questions and redoing multiple times the "correct response" on tests I didn't score well in..which was about all of them. That method really worked well, oh yeah, sure it did. Sometimes the biggest bully's in my life were the ones there to help me. Thanks, but no thanks.

I still think he might very well be in meltdown mode. Overwhelmed by it all and that my friends can look like depression. Being bipolar I can tell you there is a big big difference.

Now you know and I know and Tony knows what happened to me isn't the way to do it, but the question is, do "they".

postpalio is right on, on his descriptions of shiny things making writing difficult.

I see it in my son and myself.


Seeing shiny things during writing, is a signal, that you are bored, and simply don't want to do it.
It's your mind trying to save itself, from a task that is painful at best.

The net effect, is that the act of composition, makes the physical act of writing difficult. The physical act of writing, is so distracting that composition is nearly impossible.

It's like a negative feed back loop.... you pull on the rope to start the mower, and that causes the gas tank to empty. You put more gas in it, and pull the rope, and the spark plug falls out. You put it back on, and pull on the rope, and the gas tank is empty. At each step, you bang your head against the wall, and it takes time to recover.

Now, looking at what I just wrote, I see it is a bad visual example, but it is true in essense.

The secret for me and my son, is to seperate the composition, from the writing. Recognize that flipping between the two modes, is a catastrophic context change. Avoid continueous context flips.

I suggest trying something like this.

Sit with your child, and discuss the topic and help him develope their ideas on what needs to be communicated. This is completely verbal. This is a very good place, to talk about communications. the writer needs to put himself into the readers perspective. This is generally hard for an aspy. Work out what questions a reader might ask. Those are good things to address in an essay.

Next build a pre-outline... On one sheet of paper, write one or two words that serve as a keyword reminder to the topics that were expressed verbally in the previous step.

Now, you have a piece of paper that serves as a reminder of each little topic. The number of context switches to generate that were small.

The next step is sorting.

Put a number beside each little topic, to show what order they should be presented in.... The logical presentation order if you will.

Verbally discuss possibilities for an opening sentence/paragraph. Make a 1 or 2 word note about it

Verball discuss possibilities for a closing sentence/paragraph. Make a 1 or 2 word note about it, just like the other topics.

Next move into the actual writing.

Attack them one at a time, with a small break between.

Maybe do 1 - 3 sentences per topic.

Don't worry about spelling punctuation, word order grammer or any of the crap. The goal here is to get the content
onto the written page.

Once this part is finished, go over it verbally. Read it aloud. If anything sticks out, fix it on the paper.

Verbally discuss the content, look for missing things.
Ask the same questions that the readers would ask. Are those sorts of questions answered?

Expand the essay as needed. Messy is ok.

When the content is complete, take a break.

After the break, do a context switch to writing.
Copy the essay to a new piece of paper, not worring about content.
Worry about appearance/spelling/grammer/even font, if you are actually typing it.

The techniques above tend to minimize the number of distruptive context switches that occur.

It is unlikly that the entire process can be mastered in one session, but over time,
you might be able to make some headway.


Good Luck

Let me know how it works out.



Evil.

My apologies if I came on too strong here. I didn't mean to, sort of. I do think it's very important and I do care immensely about the younger ones.

What is happening or could be happening is called lateral thinking. It can be a mixed blessing. But really only when you smash up against the outside world does it have a way of making life more difficult. I can conceptualize things in a very short order and an awful lot of people can't. It was called chasing balloons by someone last night when I suggested it might be the way they were doing things. How others perceive her, why she does what she does. She thought it sounded about right. She was curious what might be done and I told her I try to encourage myself to do it more, but I'm strange like that. Lateral thinking should be encouraged, you just need to figure out the how to's. They are the dreamers and the young ones have many dreams a head of them and we'll all be fortunate if they are allowed to follow them. When they aren't, it looks like depression and rage and it is.

Although I know schools feel that everyone must do the same type of work, thus the reason I homeschool my kiddo, I'll tell you that I too had a horrible time with writing. I hated it. Avoided it at all costs. At the end of the day, my job requires LOTS of writing...Basically, I write all the information needed for a programmer to program our computer system. With that, for a while I wrote "somewhat normal" word documents, etc...but it really was a nightmare because I assume my undiagnosed ADD gets me lost when I leave a document I've written and then have to return to it. I get easily distracted and it's as if I have to start from scratch everytime I pick it up. So, a few years ago I changed how I did things...At first, most people at work who were used to long 200 page documents of "essay type" writing freaked out...at the end of the day, it's funny how our entire company has moved to write documentation very similar to what I do. Maybe you can try this with your son and see if it's better...

I actually write ALL my documentation now in MS Excel vs. MS Word. Example:

Instead of writing in a word document: The sytem must allow a user to input up to 4 names. In addition, the fields should include first name, middle initial, last name...

I now write it like this:

1. Input - up to 4 names with the following fields
a) first name
b) middle initial
c) last name

I am saying exactly the same thing, but with the second one, if I leave the document and have to later return, it is very easy for me to figure out where I left off...with the first one, I would literally have to read the entire thing to see what I left off.

Again, I know schools can be a pain, but can he try this? Again, english class is a whole different issue...but I think it is truly ridiculous to have a child suffer through all the other courses because the teachers are more concerned with HOW he writes what he knows than WHAT he writes or WHAT he knows.

Then, for his english, he should be writing about subjects that truly interest him. This way, he won't see it as a chore and he will want to actually focus on his writing skills.

Good luck!

I have ADD and AS, and I completely agree with this statement. When I was in elementary school, I was in the school gifted program which was structured so that for half of the day I was in the regular classroom, and then the other half of the day I was in the gifted class. It was amazing because while my regular teachers were constantly concerned that I was completely incompetent in my writing, while the gifted program teachers were convinced I was a brilliant writer. It turned out that the difference was that the regular classroom writing assignments forced me to try to write about topics that I had no interest in, while the writing assignments for the gifted program left me room to choose my own topic to research and write about. I wrote some great stuff about Barry Sanders and Stone Henge and suspension bridges and that story I wrote about the Loch Ness Monster's gambling addiction, but I couldn't seem to write a state report about Nebraska because it was too damn boring that I couldn't force myself to focus on the subject long enough to put together a coherent report. As I've gotten older I've gotten better at writing about boring topics, but I still hate doing it just as much as ever.