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snake321
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03 Feb 2008, 3:32 pm

Odin wrote:
snake321 wrote:
Syd wrote:
Labels don't "enslave" me. I agree that human language is very limiting, but it's up to the individual to define their own reality subjectively.


You do not decide what is reality, neither do I or does anyones else. That's another part of the problem, people have forgotten there is an independent reality that does not care about our perceptions or our feelings on it..... 2+2=4, it can not also equal 7 just because you decide that it should... It equals 4, bottom line. Do you get what I mean by this?
There is an ultimate reality we do not decide, but we are all subject to. Now we might not know every little part of that reality, but the current trend seems to be to pretend we know absolutely nothing, even if it's right there in front of our faces. People assume "my reality is different than your reality", and this is wrong. Labels keep people from the ultimate reality, they keep people delusional and often ignorant. We do not decide this reality, but **if** people woke up and acted as one, we could change our reality for the better. That is a big **if** I know.


Mathematics are an invention of sapient minds used to help describe reality, it is not part of reality. 2 + 2 = 4 because of how the numbers 2 and 4 and the process of addition are defined, not because the numbers really exist.


Damn Odin, I thought you were smarter than that..... Yes, the actual numbers 2 and four were our inventions, their values weren't. Please don't trump up on some postmodernist BS. Even if we changed their names to 7 and 8, if we attribute the values of what we've deemed 2 and 4 rather than 7 and 8, you'll still have the same outcome. Naming the values was a man-made thing, the actual values themselves weren't.



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03 Feb 2008, 3:36 pm

Our languages are slave languages too. Go ahead, break it down: CON-stitution, HYPOCRATIC oath, culture (cult-your). UNDERstand, why not ever interstand or overstand? Under means below, meaning below understanding. Our entire language is set this way, in fact most all languages are. It is a corrupt language, corrupt languages are dangerous because they are slave toungues. With these toungues one can easily justify murder or rape if theyr smoothe enough with their words (but as I and hopefully you know, this doesn't make him right, in the end the languages are used to centralize certain ideas into people's minds through use of subversive propaganda....... So many people do not stop to really see how things work, they do not want to know the truth, and for those at the top that's a good thing, for us it's not.
I think a free language would be very different than any toungue we've spoken here, because you could explain things a lot easier..... But ignorance and moral decay and all the division and cults and cliques would be gone, people would generally be smarter, more willing to look at themselves critically, they'd understand that they should be the only them............. We would not live in as hostile of a world really (but that's not to say a scuffle wouldn't occassionally happen..... However we'd be more likely to come to terms peacefully with a free language)....... Are there not tons of ideas you've had or things you've wanted to say that you have not had any way to explain in words? I run into that a lot actually.



Last edited by snake321 on 04 Feb 2008, 12:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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03 Feb 2008, 5:02 pm

I'm not really crazy about labels myself because they do tend to divide and stereotype, but sometimes a label can be helpful, such as in addressing a problem. Knowing that I have something called Asperger's doesn't exactly make my day, I don't jump out of bed and yell Yippie, I am an Aspy, but on the other hand having this information--this label--has helped me make sense of the issues in my life and how to constructively deal with them. There is a world of difference between being told "you have a perceptual problem" and "you have Aspergers." One is vague, the other is concrete. Sometimes you need that label to get appropriate help.

One of the things that really turns me off of Christianity is the way it is often used to divide up the world between us and them, saved and unsaved, believers and non-believers; and it is not just outsiders versus the church, but often church member against church member, like there is some competition in the "holiness sweepstakes". Some of the most aggressive evangelizers belong to the most self-segregating sects. There is tremendous pressure to conform or be judged. I got tired of that and walked away. I have also experienced prejudice from "the other side of the fence" as well; people would assume that because I attended X church I was sexist, homophobic, you name it. There was one openly gay coworker who steadfastly refused to have anything to do with me; if I needed his assistance on anything, he would just walk away without saying a word. I never did find out the reason for his dislike. It certainly wasn't because of anything I said to him on the subject because we never had a conversation in our lives! But, at the time, I was an active churchgoer and that was enough to damn me in his eyes. And of course I won't even go into the way I have been treated by so-called "normal" people.

So I just don't get into certain conversations at work or elsewhere unless it is a neutral environment. I don't let people know who I am politically, religiously, sexually, or anything else unless it is a need to know situation.



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03 Feb 2008, 7:39 pm

snake321 wrote:
Mc_Jeff wrote:
I think it's more a state of mind.

You can think, "I think ___, ___, and ___, therefore, I am a liberal/conservative" and that's ok.

If you think "I am a liberal/conservative and so _____"... that's no good.


Yeah, but what are the odds that someone would honestly agree with one party on multiple stances if not the entire party line, had they really thought for themselves?

Some people will, and some people may not agree with the entire party line, but feel that the party in question closely enough approximates their beliefs that they can still support it in good conscience. There is no way for politics to work if people aren't willing to compromise on some minor differences and unite on the common ground.


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03 Feb 2008, 7:46 pm

snake321 wrote:
Syd wrote:
Labels don't "enslave" me. I agree that human language is very limiting, but it's up to the individual to define their own reality subjectively.


You do not decide what is reality, neither do I or does anyones else. That's another part of the problem, people have forgotten there is an independent reality that does not care about our perceptions or our feelings on it..... 2+2=4, it can not also equal 7 just because you decide that it should... It equals 4, bottom line. Do you get what I mean by this?
There is an ultimate reality we do not decide, but we are all subject to. Now we might not know every little part of that reality, but the current trend seems to be to pretend we know absolutely nothing, even if it's right there in front of our faces. People assume "my reality is different than your reality", and this is wrong. Labels keep people from the ultimate reality, they keep people delusional and often ignorant. We do not decide this reality, but **if** people woke up and acted as one, we could change our reality for the better. That is a big **if** I know.

Depending on how you round, you can get 2+2=5. :D OK, done with the sarcasm. There may be only one objective reality, but there are still differing interpretations and perceptions of that reality. Not everything is as concrete as 2+2=4. Rational people can disagree on economic, moral, and other political issues. You say that none of us gets to decide what is reality, but given your assumption that an objective reality exists, you still have the problem of flawed perception. How can we trust our own observations, when they have been shown time and time again to be unreliable or inconsistent?


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03 Feb 2008, 8:01 pm

snake321 wrote:
Syd wrote:
Labels don't "enslave" me. I agree that human language is very limiting, but it's up to the individual to define their own reality subjectively.


You do not decide what is reality, neither do I or does anyones else. That's another part of the problem, people have forgotten there is an independent reality that does not care about our perceptions or our feelings on it..... 2+2=4, it can not also equal 7 just because you decide that it should... It equals 4, bottom line. Do you get what I mean by this?
There is an ultimate reality we do not decide, but we are all subject to. Now we might not know every little part of that reality, but the current trend seems to be to pretend we know absolutely nothing, even if it's right there in front of our faces. People assume "my reality is different than your reality", and this is wrong. Labels keep people from the ultimate reality, they keep people delusional and often ignorant. We do not decide this reality, but **if** people woke up and acted as one, we could change our reality for the better. That is a big **if** I know.


I understand what you're saying, I think we're in agreement for the most part. I was using the term "reality" only in the context of cognition, not as in an absolute reality. Here's an excerpt from Fritjof Capra's Web of Life which mentions the Santiago Theory of Cognition. Let me know your opinion on this.

Quote:
In the emerging theory of living systems mind is not a thing, but a process. It is cognition, the process of knowing, and it is identified with the process of life itself. This is the essence of the Santiago theory of cognition, proposed by Humberto Maturana and Francisco Varela.

In the Santiago theory the specific phenomenon underlying the process of cognition is structural coupling. An autopoietic ['self-making' or self-organising] system undergoes continual structural changes while preserving its web-like pattern of organization. It couples to its environment structurally, i.e. through recurrent interactions, each of which triggers structural changes in the system. The living system is autonomous, however. The environment only triggers the structural changes; it does not specify or direct them.

Now, the living system not only specifies these structural changes, it also specifies which perturbations from the environment trigger them. This is the key to the Santiago theory of cognition. The structural changes in the system constitute acts of cognition. By specifying which perturbations from the environment trigger its changes, the system 'brings forth a world', as Maturana and Varela put it. Cognition, then, is not a representation of an independently existing world, but rather a continual bringing forth of a world through the process of living. The interactions of a living systems with its environment are cognitive interactions, and the process of living itself is a process of cognition. In the words of Maturana and Varela, 'to live is to know'.

It is obvious that we are dealing here with a radical expansion with the concept of cognition and implicitly, the concept of mind. In this new view, cognition involves the entire process of life — including perception, emotion, and behavior — and does not necessarily require a brain and a nervous system. ... Thus even a bacterium brings forth a world — a world of warmth and coldness, of magnetic fields and chemical gradients. In all these cognitive processes, perception and action are inseparable, and since the structural changes and associated actions that are triggered in an organism depend on the organism's structure, Francisco Varela describes cognition as 'embodied action'.

In fact, cognition involves two kinds of activities that are inextricably linked: the maintenance and continuation of autopoiesis and the bringing forth of a world. A living system is a multiply-interconnected network whose components are constantly changing, being transformed and replaced by other components. There is a great fluidity and flexibility in this network, which allows the system to respond to disturbances, or 'stimuli', from the environment in a very special way. Certain disturbances trigger specific structural changes, i.e. changes in the connectivity throughout the network. This is a distributive phenomenon. The entire network responds to a selected disturbance by rearranging its patterns of connectivity.

Since these structural changes are acts of cognition, development is always associated with learning. In fact, development and learning are two sides of the same coin. Both are expressions of structural coupling.

Not all physical changes in an organism are acts of cognition. When part of a dandelion is eaten by a rabbit, or when an animal is injured in an accident, those structural changes are not specified and directed by the organism; they are not changes of choice and are thus not acts of cognition. However, these imposed physical changes are accompanied by other structural changes (perception, response of the immune system, etc.) that are acts of cognition.

On the other hand, not all disturbances from the environment cause structural changes. Living organisms respond to only a small fraction of the stimuli impinging on them. Each living system builds up its own distinctive world according to its own distinctive structure. As Varela puts it, 'mind and world arise together'. However, through mutual structural coupling, individual living systems are part of each other's world. They communicate with one another and coordinate their behavior. There is an ecology of worlds brought forth by mutually coherent acts of cognition.


In the Santiago theory, cognition is an integral part of the way a living organism interacts with its environment. It does not react to environmental stimuli through a linear chain of cause and effect, but responds with structural changes in its nonlinear, organizationally closed, autopoietic network. This type of response enables the organism to continue its autopoietic organization and thus to continue living in its environment. In other words, the organism's cognitive interaction with its environment is intelligent interaction. From the perspective of the Santiago theory, intelligence is manifest in the richness and flexibility of an organisms structural coupling.

The range of interactions a living system can have with its environment defines its 'cognitive domain'. As the complexity of a living organism increases, so does its cognitive domain. At a certain level of complexity, a living organism couples structurally not only to its environment but also to itself, and thus brings forth not only an external but also an inner world. In human beings the bringing forth of such an inner world is intimately linked to language, thought, and consciousness.



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03 Feb 2008, 8:09 pm

Exactly.



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03 Feb 2008, 8:16 pm

But that "inner world" is dangerous because it is an implanted illusion. And when people are so sub-divided, they become more selfish so you end up with what you have now, where everyone is taught to think and act inside those labels and they stop caring about getting along, they do not want to compromise, they want to dominate. People are fighting for political reward based on religion, gender, race, (all of which also fall under "liberal" or "conservative") etc, without considering the fairness of their position to others..... Rather than seeking the immediate interests of a group, we should be looking at the common good of the whole of our society in the long run, which means compromise, everyone meets in the middle.
We're approaching a police state (to those who have studied history and kept up). They want us divided.... United we'll stand, divided we'll fall.



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03 Feb 2008, 9:39 pm

Orwell wrote:
snake321 wrote:
Syd wrote:
Labels don't "enslave" me. I agree that human language is very limiting, but it's up to the individual to define their own reality subjectively.


You do not decide what is reality, neither do I or does anyones else. That's another part of the problem, people have forgotten there is an independent reality that does not care about our perceptions or our feelings on it..... 2+2=4, it can not also equal 7 just because you decide that it should... It equals 4, bottom line. Do you get what I mean by this?
There is an ultimate reality we do not decide, but we are all subject to. Now we might not know every little part of that reality, but the current trend seems to be to pretend we know absolutely nothing, even if it's right there in front of our faces. People assume "my reality is different than your reality", and this is wrong. Labels keep people from the ultimate reality, they keep people delusional and often ignorant. We do not decide this reality, but **if** people woke up and acted as one, we could change our reality for the better. That is a big **if** I know.

Depending on how you round, you can get 2+2=5. :D OK, done with the sarcasm. There may be only one objective reality, but there are still differing interpretations and perceptions of that reality. Not everything is as concrete as 2+2=4. Rational people can disagree on economic, moral, and other political issues. You say that none of us gets to decide what is reality, but given your assumption that an objective reality exists, you still have the problem of flawed perception. How can we trust our own observations, when they have been shown time and time again to be unreliable or inconsistent?

I'm not saying everyone should just blindly follow what I say. However, I do not know where I have been "unreliable" or "inconsistent".... I am always gaining new knowledge, which can flip other knowledge I had aquired.... But it's really hard to explain these things given the restrictions of our language, which is in unfortunately the only one I know (and even if I did know another language, chances are that too is a slave language). I mean with this language, you can defend child molestation and still win a moral argument. Doesn't mean it's right though.



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03 Feb 2008, 9:42 pm

There are different planes of consciousness, I can believe one thing on one plane, and believe the exact opposite on another plane of consciousness. It's rather hard to really explain.
Take for instance, illegal immigration.... On one plane of consciousness, I realise that according to the system I live in, hundreds of thousands of undocumented and unknown people flooding the borders will be an economic and security hazard to the nation (no matter what color they are, I'm not gonna do the "PC" thing and put them on a pedistal and treat them with kid gloves, and that doesn't make me a racist, it just makes me concerned about my survival before someone else's).
On another plane of consciousness, I realise that the nation state was never anything more than a giant corporation headed by a mother corporation. Money is the fuel to these corporations, and the economic enslaver of society. So the NWO belongs to those at the top, but so does the old world order. It was just a preperatory stage in the plan really.
My personal conclusion being that the best way to gain control of our world from these psychopathic elites is to try and maintain the old world order as best as possible, and slowly phase out their power grids in the system. US and Mexican citizens SHOULD rally together against NAFTA, instead of fighting to let people come in unknown and rob us, and push us right into the plan of beaurocrats and internationalists who wanna enslave us all. But then sometimes I think really the only way to beat this is if everyone stops paying taxes, stops going to work, stops using money, stops voting, stops going to church, stops watching television.



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03 Feb 2008, 10:34 pm

Some things are concrete, it is a concrete fact that doing away with our 2nd amendment will most likely end in government tyranny. This is why they want to take away our gun rights. All tyrants throughout history have disarmed the populace before taking over.... Because a disarmed populace has no means of self defense.
It is a concrete fact that ***according to our current system***, illegal immigration is bad, because it allows hundreds of thousands of people to come in undocumented. Meaning those people COULD be serial killers, rapists, etc. How are you gonna prosecute a criminal that there is no knowledge of existing? How can you regulate an economy when you do not know how many people are living in your country? And then they get free health care while many CITIZENS here can not afford to see a doctor.
Ultimately nation states were created and led by the elites to divide the working class..... But there you are faced with a situation, because now the elites wanna erase our borders and enslave us all under one banner. So maintaining nation states will also maintain the power of our current world domination, but then if we throw away our borders we will be fueling the next stage of the plan, the NWO, which is frighteningly inhumane. As for the language thing, I do think we should invest in a world-wide language, but not any of our currently used slave languages..... Meaning we'd have to strongly analyze our other languages and learn from them in creating a newer language.