A question for believers

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I have a question for all you believers out there. This is just to pick your brains and not to start a debate. I'm just interested in how you think . . .

I'm not sure how to phrase this so it makes sense . . . There are millions of people of whatever religion (does not necessarily have to be Christianity) who believe that there is some kind of supernatural being (or beings) who is actively involved in their lives (sometimes to the point of micromanagement), and that this being (or beings) is responsible for the continuing existence of the universe. Everything is under this being's control; nothing happens without its knowledge or permission. That, basically, is the religious position as I understand it.

However, when I look at the everyday lives of people around me, it is as if an unspoken agreement exists among this varied group of people to behave as if they were all atheists--that God is not relevant--in their day to day lives. For example, I work in a research facility that employs people from all over the world. I happen to know many of them are active believers, whether Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Hindu or whatever. Yet, if you read any of the scientific reports produced by my company you will find no mention of God whatsoever. Whether God exists or not is irrelevant to what we do. This is agreed upon by atheist and believer alike. The same goes for a number of disciplines; unless the topic is specifically religious, God as an active, relevant force is simply not mentioned. Should an alien from another planet come observe us, I wonder what he/she/it would make of this situation, what conclusions might it draw?

My question therefore involves religious people (atheists, you have already drawn your conclusions!). How do you reconcile the necessity to publically act as if God did not exist with the belief you profess in private? I understand the why (to keep peace, to keep one's job); what I am interested in is the how. Is it hard or easy to compartmentalize? And do you resent having to put on this mask? Do you even see it as a mask?

Hi ClosetAspy,

I'm a Christian. My faith/belief is a personal thing and so it's not something that's going to be published in scientific journals. Science is all about seeing and proving and repeating; faith/belief is the opposite. But, I believe in God because I had a spiritual experience after I believed that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins, and asked that He direct my life. I have prayed and seen answers to those prayers. I believe; that's all. I'm not wearing a mask. But, I guess it's because it's a personal thing, it's a relationship with our Savior. It''s not a public thing. There are bumper sticker Christians; I can't speak for them.

The question I was asking is not whether your faith is a personal thing. What I am looking for is do you find it a problem to switch between the public and the private. Apparently, from your response, you are able to compartmentalize without it being an issue. But how?

I am not able to compartmentalize in that way, maybe it's the Aspergers. But I keep going back and forth, comparing the two worlds, faith and science, seeing what is absent and what is present in each, and something had to give if I was to be intellectually honest. Perhaps it is true that faith is a gift, if so, it's not one I have. I'm too intellectual, too rational. But I do try to keep an open mind. The best I can say, is I don't know, I am still learning, still exploring. I do know when answers ring true and when they don't

I don't know about anyone else, but I have been told many times--and always by "Christian" friends, never atheists or agnostics, that "I think too much."

Note: I'm not a believer

I think most people in developed countries are "functionally atheist" or "functionally deist" with a greater or lesser degree of superstition tacked on. "Functionally atheist/deist" meaning that they their daily lives and behavior are not influenced by their religious beliefs, whatever those beliefs are. This is why Nietzsche said that "God is dead and we have killed Him," for most people in the richer countries "God" is irrelevant in their day-to-day lives

Oh sorry ClosetAspy, I didn't get what u were asking. I don't see discrepancies. I see it as an translation problem. Big Bang theory is Genesis 1:3, "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light." Evolution and creation seem to have different time sequences, but II Peter 3:8 says, "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day." That tells me that He is in timelessness (eternal) and that's where He created everything. Is that what u are asking?

You ask a very good question ClosetAspy. I'm not really an in-the-closet Christian though, so my thoughts would be a bit different.

There's a mentality that has developed about religion which I think explains why a lot of people keep their religious practices a secret. One of the most commonly held views of religion is that it is all subjective and is only an interpretation of the environment in which we exist, but has no facts to rely on, and to act as a substitute, this thing called faith was created. I talk to a lot of people; they say they believe in God, but to many it seems to really be nothing but a footnote in the pages of their lives, so they naturally don't see it as having an impact on who they are or where they're going. It's actually an odd way to live I think, because while you think God is real, He plays too little of a role in your life for Him to really influence you. But if God is as majestic and powerful as people say He is, and is fully capable of hearing out the needs of people and providing them answers, why keep Him a secret? He could turn out to be the best thing that has ever happened to humanity.

Right. This brings to mind the Hebrew word for "faith", "belief", or "to believe". It's a twofold meaning: thinking-and-doing. In other words, if you think something, but show the opposite in your actions, then you don't "believe" it. (It's obvious, if you think about it.) People say they have "faith" in God, but live as if they don't believe He's real. That's a false "belief", which God sees right through. If you "believe" a car is about to hit you, and you value your life, that belief will cause you to take any evasive action possible. The action that you would take would show that your belief was genuine.

Conversely, you can make a speech while standing in the path of a moving vehicle, and expound upon how much you value your own life, and how much you believe that cars can kill people, but if you let the car hit you, you were bearing a false witness. That's why Jesus in his bad tree brings bad fruit / good tree brings good fruit analogy said that you will know Christians by their actions, not their words. "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit" (Matt 7:15-17).

i guess i really don't understand what you are asking. i believe in god. but i haven't had to keep quiet about it or compartmentalize it... ?

i don't talk about my beliefs every second just like i keep most of my thoughts to myself, but i don't think that is a mask or that i am acting as if god does not exist. so with other people i never have this problem.

maybe you mean internally? as i go through life, in whatever capacity, i still think about stuff the same way, it's not like i switch my brain one way to take a college course, and then back for church on sunday... i am seeing everything from a perspective of the same belief system.

My realtionship with God has evolved over the years. I used to be a "Jesus Freak," but I realized that most of that enthusiasm really wasn't the Lord as much as it was me bouncing off the wall with a new obsession. When I obsess, it results in the opposite effect of what I'm trying to achieve. So, I realized that since my relationship with God is a personal one, that's where it should stay. People should recognize me as a Christian by my actions, not because I'm saying, "God is Great. You've GOT TO KNOW HIM!"

But I do feel that God makes Himself known to those who really seek Him. Lots of autistic people are majorly-logical, and God has made them that way so they will find Him via science. Science keeps us moving forward. He wants us to move forward, so he's found a carrot to hold in front of those who are not content with what is known. For me, I had no problem sensing and trusting His spirit. My husband is extremely logical (married my opposite), a semiconductor device designer, who believes in God (something that occurred after we started dating). He is as scientific as they come, but he says that he sees design in everything in the universe, and that means (since he is a designed himself) there is a Designer. We differ on how involved God is in our daily lives, but that doesn't change the fact that we believe in God. If there was a God and He was trying to communicate to us, what would be the best way to do it? Wouldn't a book that everyone could read for themselves be a logical path? God is an invisible, creative, intelligent energy. He can and will make Himself known to those who seek Him. He only has positive side effects; paranoia is replaced with peace.

I'm not a believer of any sort, but ClosetAspy asks a surprisingly worthwhile question to ask in public. I'm seriously interested in the answers from Christians, in particular. It's one I've wrestled with trying to understand, myself, and I'm interested in serious answers to the question.

The very core of what it means to be a Christian is the Sermon on the Mount. That is the mustard seed. so to speak. If not that, then not a Christian, at all. The early Christian communities once held those ideals over all else in practice and deed, not just in word. But it is impossible to tell, these days, that there ever even was a Sermon, at all, looking at the behaviors of most Christians today. I wonder how they can claim the right, at all, to call themselves Christians if they hold the very words of Jesus himself about what it means to be Christian in such poor esteem.

Thanks for asking it. I shall be watching and wondering about the answers here. It's a great and straight to the core question.

Jon

I'm spiritual rather than religious so this I think is a lot easier for me. I think a lot of people understand though that science is science, it needs to handled in a very anal and sterile way just because it only works to the extent that people can keep their judgment from being clouded. I think that if people do believe in a higher power and they choose more scientific routes of study, they have to be pretty flexible in terms of maybe not specifically the existence of a higher power but rather the reality that is - whether that higher power created it or not. Most of the people who do get hung up on the details, whether its evolution or its something else of the like that doesn't lend itself to creationism, tend to be the people who live on dogma rather than an analytical understanding of their faith; its an easy trap to fall into as well when organized religion seems to default toward it so often.

Also, I'm not sure whether this is part of what you mean but if your talking about the NT tendency to be religious but act in all other ways; that's one I still don't fully have a grasp on. I can see where if people had increasingly complex and abstract views of religion as they got older and took animal nature more and more into account it would make sense - plenty of the same people don't though which is what has me scratching my head quite often as well.

But perhaps a sharper question isn't about belief, itself, but action. Note that ClosetAspy's words were "it is as if an unspoken agreement exists among this varied group of people to behave as if they were all atheists." Talking about behavior here... works. Not internal mental states. What is observable, instead.

It's a great question. How has the Sermon on the Mount led your life in action? In what ways do you follow Jesus' words, here? Read it carefully, before answering. Remember, the early Christian communities literally LIVED the Sermon. It was NOT just some words to them. It was the centerpiece of their community. Not some side-bar.

Jon

Last edited by jonk on 06 Feb 2008, 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nicely done. So... Let's hear about it. I'm very, very curious about serious answers here.

Jon

Wow, some reallly good replies here. I don't know how many people here have read Stephen L. Carter's "The Culture of Disbelief" which explores the anti-faith bias in American society. It's kind of where I am coming from.

Our culture seems to have an unwritten rule that religion is something you do in private and that it is just as inappropriate and ridiculous to mention God in certain contexts as it would be the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus. And for the most part, believers and nonbelievers alike have agreed to accept this premise, mainly for pragmatic reasons. My question is, by accepting this premise, aren't believers conceding a sort of victory to the unbelievers?

I was raised in a family that was half-Catholic, half-Protestant. At the time my parents married the Catholic church required the non-Catholic partner to sign a paper saying he or she would not interfere with the religious upbringing of any children that resulted from the marriage. The children were to be raised Catholic and Catholic only. Even to mention anything about the other person's faith was considered to be interference!! ! These were the terms agreed upon by BOTH parties. A few years ago my father broke his silence and spoke of his resentment at having had to sign that paper. But the consequences of this agreement was that except for what was ritually required by the church, you would have been hard pressed to tell our family from an atheist family. There is a reason why I mention God in the same breath as the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus. It's pretty hard for a child to tell the difference when the adults around her treat all four alike.

personally if i was too fall in love with god i couldnt seperate my selfrom him so if i was working i'd constintley be talking about him

Still, a lot of believers don't feel they're doing him service by annoying other people - when they do they're pushing people further away from their own belief system and giving it a bad rep.