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bheid
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27 Feb 2008, 1:10 pm

This is an essay I wrote on the subject of self-creation and the mind in general. It's not dry, as one of it's objectives was to hold the attention of the reader, and that it does.
What are your opinions on the subjects disscussed?

The restrictions of belief, and its potential

No doubt religion started because people take things too literally. A person thanks a metaphorical personification of the sun, and then starts believing that the metaphor is real. This is called psychotic behaviour, when people confuse what's in their mind with what is real. If that last statement is true, though, then we are all psychotics, all living in a giant mental ward called Earth. Don't go over to Big Larry, though; he hasn't taken his pills and he gave an orderly a black eye last week.

How can God be almost tangible for a fundamentalist, but be just a hollow cliché for an atheist? How could a pro-lifer die for the sake of a foetus, and a pro-choicer kill for the sake of the mother? Differing opinions, yes. But opinions are generally concerned about what to have for tea when one gets home from work; you'll need something else to force homicide from otherwise normal people. These are deeply held beliefs, so deep, in fact, that the very ego is built on them. The problem with having beliefs for a foundation of the ego is that they can be shaken. Sometimes the foundation cracks, and therefore so does the person.

Beliefs and prior experience define a person, like words on a page define a character. As an example, we'll use the cat metaphor: two people see a black cat in front of them. One of them strokes it, as he likes cats; the other circles around it in a wide arc since he's deathly afraid of the buggers because one clawed him as a child. One had a positive reaction to the cat, the other a negative. Like characters on paper, they obeyed their preceding characterisation perfectly. You can see how limiting it is to obey prior experiences, especially when there is no reason to doubt friendly cats.

You could even go as far as to say that belief and experience provide a man with his very reality. It's true: just look at the religious fanatic willing to die for his Lord, or the suicide cultists drinking their cyanide-laced Kool-aid. They probably wouldn't do that unless they thought it was perfectly rational. As a winning example, look at the Church of Scientology. And don't start snickering at the loonies, either; yes, I can hear you. No doubt you, reader, have embraced the same mass-produced reality as your peers. There's nothing inherently evil about that, but you can be so much more. For shame.

It starts, as previously stated, with a belief model. Then sensory experience is accumulated by the senses, to be assimilated by the brain. As forever complicated as the brain is, it can't remember every single thing experienced at every single moment. It has to filter. This means that meaningful information is stored, and useless information is discarded. It takes meaningful data as defined by the belief model; a depressed person would remember the rats in the sewers, and the optimist would remember the soaring birds. As an experiment, try to exist in the present for a moment. It's impossible; humans don't live in the present, we live a few seconds in the past. By the time we sense something, time's already dulling it. This has the uncanny effect of bending even objective reality to our beliefs. Different beliefs, different experience of objective reality.

In order to tap into the potential of belief and to change for the better, there needs to be a will to change. And in order for there to be a will to change, it needs to be in the personality make-up of the person. Actually, that's a lie. The Jungian collective-unconscious exists, metaphor or not, and the brain keeps everything it has ever processed. Nothing is wasted, and even though the 'I' of the brain can't access these archives freely, they still define it. An average person holds many personalities, and if the media have their way, most of them will be blood-crazed loons, but still, blood-crazed loons who have the will to change.

Is it turtles all the way down, or does God hold up the Nth turtle by an ethereal finger? How far does the mind go down? In order to think an English thought, the thought needs to be assembled into English by the mind before it's thought, which means you've already thought it at some level. In order to think about thinking, we use a separate thought process to think about thinking. Which of course begs a third level into existence. How far can we go down or up levels in consciousness? Infinity? What if our conscious thoughts don't alter our actions, but are the manifestation of sub-conscious thought processes that we don't control? What makes us so arrogant to think that a high level programming language of thought can defeat the pure binary of the sub-conscious? You’ll know the levels of your mind that aren’t yourself as your enemies. The trick is to flood the sub-conscious with things contrary to its beliefs, shake it a little, just so much that it gives up helm control to you.

Is freedom from illusions possible, though? Certainly, when you overcome a particularly toxic personality, the feeling of freedom is immense. Don't be mistaking those colourful things on your wrists as bracelets, though, as they're still fetters; they're just painted differently. Every time you break out of one prison, you land in a bigger one with more freedom; a new personality to break out of. Only the Zen psychotics have freed themselves from this, as their religion requires that their ego die, rather than shatter or mould itself anew. Action without thought is peaceful, yes, but as peaceful as the grave.

Rebel against something useful for a change: rebel against yourself. Stand up against the democracy of your many-levelled consciousness and impose a tyrant for life: you.



ouinon
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27 Feb 2008, 2:46 pm

nice sand pit. :)

First response is to quote,.. who asked this .. "What determines the will?"

8)



Last edited by ouinon on 28 Feb 2008, 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

snake321
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27 Feb 2008, 5:04 pm

bheid wrote:
This is an essay I wrote on the subject of self-creation and the mind in general. It's not dry, as one of it's objectives was to hold the attention of the reader, and that it does.
What are your opinions on the subjects disscussed?

The restrictions of belief, and its potential

No doubt religion started because people take things too literally. A person thanks a metaphorical personification of the sun, and then starts believing that the metaphor is real. This is called psychotic behaviour, when people confuse what's in their mind with what is real. If that last statement is true, though, then we are all psychotics, all living in a giant mental ward called Earth. Don't go over to Big Larry, though; he hasn't taken his pills and he gave an orderly a black eye last week.

How can God be almost tangible for a fundamentalist, but be just a hollow cliché for an atheist? How could a pro-lifer die for the sake of a foetus, and a pro-choicer kill for the sake of the mother? Differing opinions, yes. But opinions are generally concerned about what to have for tea when one gets home from work; you'll need something else to force homicide from otherwise normal people. These are deeply held beliefs, so deep, in fact, that the very ego is built on them. The problem with having beliefs for a foundation of the ego is that they can be shaken. Sometimes the foundation cracks, and therefore so does the person.

Beliefs and prior experience define a person, like words on a page define a character. As an example, we'll use the cat metaphor: two people see a black cat in front of them. One of them strokes it, as he likes cats; the other circles around it in a wide arc since he's deathly afraid of the buggers because one clawed him as a child. One had a positive reaction to the cat, the other a negative. Like characters on paper, they obeyed their preceding characterisation perfectly. You can see how limiting it is to obey prior experiences, especially when there is no reason to doubt friendly cats.

You could even go as far as to say that belief and experience provide a man with his very reality. It's true: just look at the religious fanatic willing to die for his Lord, or the suicide cultists drinking their cyanide-laced Kool-aid. They probably wouldn't do that unless they thought it was perfectly rational. As a winning example, look at the Church of Scientology. And don't start snickering at the loonies, either; yes, I can hear you. No doubt you, reader, have embraced the same mass-produced reality as your peers. There's nothing inherently evil about that, but you can be so much more. For shame.

It starts, as previously stated, with a belief model. Then sensory experience is accumulated by the senses, to be assimilated by the brain. As forever complicated as the brain is, it can't remember every single thing experienced at every single moment. It has to filter. This means that meaningful information is stored, and useless information is discarded. It takes meaningful data as defined by the belief model; a depressed person would remember the rats in the sewers, and the optimist would remember the soaring birds. As an experiment, try to exist in the present for a moment. It's impossible; humans don't live in the present, we live a few seconds in the past. By the time we sense something, time's already dulling it. This has the uncanny effect of bending even objective reality to our beliefs. Different beliefs, different experience of objective reality.

In order to tap into the potential of belief and to change for the better, there needs to be a will to change. And in order for there to be a will to change, it needs to be in the personality make-up of the person. Actually, that's a lie. The Jungian collective-unconscious exists, metaphor or not, and the brain keeps everything it has ever processed. Nothing is wasted, and even though the 'I' of the brain can't access these archives freely, they still define it. An average person holds many personalities, and if the media have their way, most of them will be blood-crazed loons, but still, blood-crazed loons who have the will to change.

Is it turtles all the way down, or does God hold up the Nth turtle by an ethereal finger? How far does the mind go down? In order to think an English thought, the thought needs to be assembled into English by the mind before it's thought, which means you've already thought it at some level. In order to think about thinking, we use a separate thought process to think about thinking. Which of course begs a third level into existence. How far can we go down or up levels in consciousness? Infinity? What if our conscious thoughts don't alter our actions, but are the manifestation of sub-conscious thought processes that we don't control? What makes us so arrogant to think that a high level programming language of thought can defeat the pure binary of the sub-conscious? You’ll know the levels of your mind that aren’t yourself as your enemies. The trick is to flood the sub-conscious with things contrary to its beliefs, shake it a little, just so much that it gives up helm control to you.

Is freedom from illusions possible, though? Certainly, when you overcome a particularly toxic personality, the feeling of freedom is immense. Don't be mistaking those colourful things on your wrists as bracelets, though, as they're still fetters; they're just painted differently. Every time you break out of one prison, you land in a bigger one with more freedom; a new personality to break out of. Only the Zen psychotics have freed themselves from this, as their religion requires that their ego die, rather than shatter or mould itself anew. Action without thought is peaceful, yes, but as peaceful as the grave.

Rebel against something useful for a change: rebel against yourself. Stand up against the democracy of your many-levelled consciousness and impose a tyrant for life: you.


This is what I've been trying to tell people. And it's not just religion, it's ANY ideology (that includes "political correctness"). When a system is placed within a person's mind, they are not free to think or question it. They are held back by their ego. Although I wouldn't consider awakening "imposing a tyrant for life".



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27 Feb 2008, 5:08 pm

I agree with a lot of the ideas there. I disagree with the notion that attacking beliefs will free oneself though or that it is positive or negative. I will agree with the skeptical notions that can be found by doing this, but frankly, I don't believe that there is a self that is independent of our beliefs.



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27 Feb 2008, 5:20 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I agree with a lot of the ideas there. I disagree with the notion that attacking beliefs will free oneself though or that it is positive or negative. I will agree with the skeptical notions that can be found by doing this, but frankly, I don't believe that there is a self that is independent of our beliefs.


Most peoples' beliefs are not even their beliefs, most people are merely a product of their indoctrinations. They just spew out programming, like a computer. They did not come upon their beliefs on their own, most have never objectively even thought about their beliefs, but rather just accepted the package in order to fit in somewhere. By doing this they are denying their individual perspective. Therefore, if people stop conforming, think outside of groups, and more as an individual, there is a self independent of beliefs, unless of coarse you believe people are meant to be robots.
Conformity to a belief or to a group is not freedom at all, even if people think they are free. They are held down by a system, a mental structure that stops them from thinking. It's mental slavery. Freedom is individuality. Conformity is indoctrination.



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27 Feb 2008, 5:22 pm

There is no harm in saying "I don't know", if there is no way one can know. Leave it open, maybe later on one can find something that will put them in the know about what it is they initially did not know.



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27 Feb 2008, 5:56 pm

snake321 wrote:
Most peoples' beliefs are not even their beliefs, most people are merely a product of their indoctrinations. They just spew out programming, like a computer. They did not come upon their beliefs on their own, most have never objectively even thought about their beliefs, but rather just accepted the package in order to fit in somewhere. By doing this they are denying their individual perspective. Therefore, if people stop conforming, think outside of groups, and more as an individual, there is a self independent of beliefs, unless of coarse you believe people are meant to be robots.

I am not denying that beliefs are often results of indoctrinations, I do think that most people are meant to be robots. Certainly some inner skepticism can help them perfect their doctrines or alter them, even significantly, but changing beliefs isn't a result of rationality so much as imperfectin.
Quote:
Conformity to a belief or to a group is not freedom at all, even if people think they are free. They are held down by a system, a mental structure that stops them from thinking. It's mental slavery. Freedom is individuality. Conformity is indoctrination.

Everyone conforms to their own beliefs, therefore nobody is free. I cannot think of a person who can legimately say "I don't believe the things I believe" as that is a contradiction in terms, nor can I think of a person who says "I believe in nothing" for so little can be proven.



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27 Feb 2008, 9:53 pm

I can't break down quotes the way others here do, so I'm just doing it manually, cutting and pasting.



Awesomelyglorious wrote:
snake321 wrote:
Most peoples' beliefs are not even their beliefs, most people are merely a product of their indoctrinations. They just spew out programming, like a computer. They did not come upon their beliefs on their own, most have never objectively even thought about their beliefs, but rather just accepted the package in order to fit in somewhere. By doing this they are denying their individual perspective. Therefore, if people stop conforming, think outside of groups, and more as an individual, there is a self independent of beliefs, unless of coarse you believe people are meant to be robots.

I am not denying that beliefs are often results of indoctrinations, I do think that most people are meant to be robots. Certainly some inner skepticism can help them perfect their doctrines or alter them, even significantly, but changing beliefs isn't a result of rationality so much as imperfectin.
Quote:
Conformity to a belief or to a group is not freedom at all, even if people think they are free. They are held down by a system, a mental structure that stops them from thinking. It's mental slavery. Freedom is individuality. Conformity is indoctrination.

Everyone conforms to their own beliefs, therefore nobody is free. I cannot think of a person who can legimately say "I don't believe the things I believe" as that is a contradiction in terms, nor can I think of a person who says "I believe in nothing" for so little can be proven.




Q. "
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
snake321 wrote:
Most peoples' beliefs are not even their beliefs, most people are merely a product of their indoctrinations. They just spew out programming, like a computer. They did not come upon their beliefs on their own, most have never objectively even thought about their beliefs, but rather just accepted the package in order to fit in somewhere. By doing this they are denying their individual perspective. Therefore, if people stop conforming, think outside of groups, and more as an individual, there is a self independent of beliefs, unless of coarse you believe people are meant to be robots.

I am not denying that beliefs are often results of indoctrinations, I do think that most people are meant to be robots. Certainly some inner skepticism can help them perfect their doctrines or alter them, even significantly, but changing beliefs isn't a result of rationality so much as imperfectin. "
Quote:


A. And this is why people have this thing called a conscience? Most people consciously decide certain behaviors are bad, not so much out of conformity as out of natural progression of the conscience. Without this conscience a society can not function, there would be no cohesion. Freedom is grand, but there needs to be responsibility to balance it out. There need to be some ground rules.
Quote:

Q. "
Quote:
Conformity to a belief or to a group is not freedom at all, even if people think they are free. They are held down by a system, a mental structure that stops them from thinking. It's mental slavery. Freedom is individuality. Conformity is indoctrination.

Everyone conforms to their own beliefs, therefore nobody is free. I cannot think of a person who can legimately say "I don't believe the things I believe" as that is a contradiction in terms, nor can I think of a person who says "I believe in nothing" for so little can be proven.


A. I may "conform to my own beliefs", but I found my own beliefs, and even they aren't solidly grounded to where they can't be changed as I discover new information. My beliefs are my beliefs, because I found them, they weren't given to me I researched, I did my homework, I didn't take them from anyone rather I used my own objective knowledge and wizdom, theyr natural. Naturally my beliefs.
Therefore, I'm not conforming because my beliefs are natural. I don't believe what I believe in order to fit in anywhere. People are pressured to conform, if it's natural it's not conformity. I came to my beliefs through unbias rationalization of information. I always look for facts, unbias facts. I say unbias because there is only one reality we can be sure of, and one reality that effects everyone, and it does not take anyone's side. I'm not a big fan of all that deconstructionism/modernism/post modernism/existentialism/nihilism "how do I know my hand is in front of my face?" crap.



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27 Feb 2008, 10:42 pm

snake321 wrote:
A. And this is why people have this thing called a conscience? Most people consciously decide certain behaviors are bad, not so much out of conformity as out of natural progression of the conscience. Without this conscience a society can not function, there would be no cohesion. Freedom is grand, but there needs to be responsibility to balance it out. There need to be some ground rules.

I disagree with your notion of the workings of the conscience and would argue that the conscience typically functions as a conformist device, with the rare occasions that it doesn't being ascribable to intrusions of different cultures or failures created by inconsistencies that develop over time.

Quote:
A. I may "conform to my own beliefs", but I found my own beliefs, and even they aren't solidly grounded to where they can't be changed as I discover new information. My beliefs are my beliefs, because I found them, they weren't given to me I researched, I did my homework, I didn't take them from anyone rather I used my own objective knowledge and wizdom, theyr natural. Naturally my beliefs.

Does the origin of a belief really matter to the believer of it? All that what you say means that you conform to a different standard than other people. Not only that, but the ability to change merely means different underlying assumptions. Every view comes from a foundation, and the foundations aren't rational, and cannot be rational as there is no such thing as a rational foundation because of the infinite regress needed to prove its validity. I am not going to deny the work that you did either, I am just merely saying that you, like everyone else, is a slave to your foundations.
Quote:
Therefore, I'm not conforming because my beliefs are natural. I don't believe what I believe in order to fit in anywhere. People are pressured to conform, if it's natural it's not conformity. I came to my beliefs through unbias rationalization of information. I always look for facts, unbias facts. I say unbias because there is only one reality we can be sure of, and one reality that effects everyone, and it does not take anyone's side. I'm not a big fan of all that deconstructionism/modernism/post modernism/existentialism/nihilism "how do I know my hand is in front of my face?" crap.

I don't see why a method really matters. In both cases we have beings acting according to their nature and using different sources. Does it really matter that you don't believe what you do in order to fit in? No, your underlying desire still cannot be rational because of the infinite regress that rational things require, so you still believe what you do for bad reasons. There is also no such thing as an unbiased process, all human processes carry with them a bias, to deny this bias is to deny your own humanity. Bias also isn't just found in not choosing facts, but also in choosing certain facts, such as cherry-picking. Our brains love cherry-picking and we pick various facts in various places to prove our points. How about this question: how DO you know that your hand is in fact in front of your face? You can claim that it is the best hypothesis for explaining the data you are given, or define your terms such that the data given is the only thing that matters, but how can you disprove that you are a brain in a vat?



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28 Feb 2008, 8:14 pm

Snake321, what are your beliefs? What are your ideas? Do you have any outside of critizing all beliefs, all values? You are not superior because you belief in nothing.