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22 Mar 2008, 1:15 pm

http://www.walletpop.com/2008/02/26/dep ... zac-study/

Can anyone tell if this is just Prozac specifically or all SSRIs? I'm on Lexapro and since it's $22 a refill I'd like to know whether or not it's worth it or if I can just get something cheaper.



merrymadscientist
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22 Mar 2008, 1:29 pm

I think that the study examined more than one SSRI drug, but not all of them (I dont know which others specifically). However, this doesnt mean you should stop taking it. This lack of effect was only seen for mild depression. The placebo effect (thinking it works) is very strong for antidepressants so this is one reason that the drugs dont fare so well against placebo. Also, I am pretty sure that they do have some effect - I was very sceptical about antidepressants as I have had some that dont work, but Effexor (which is one that was in this study) has helped me despite my sceptism (which is a sort of reverse placebo effect) although admittedly my depression was severe.
If your drug is working for you, definately dont stop it. If it isnt working then talk to your doctor about it. The problem is that the older antidepressants (tricyclics), which are cheaper, have a lot of side effects and normally arent used nowadays unless someone doesnt respond to SSRIs. Taking a placebo that you know is a placebo wont work - the effect depends upon people believing that it is a drug that will help them.



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22 Mar 2008, 1:56 pm

Yeah New Scientist carried a similar article earlier this month:
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/hea ... essed.html

"HAS the Prozac bubble finally burst? Such antidepressants seem to work no better than a placebo, except for the most severely depressed. So says a new study which backs up recent reports that the effectiveness of antidepressants may have been exaggerated.

Irving Kirsch of Hull University, UK, studied all data submitted to the US Food and Drug Administration for the licensing of the SSRIs fluoxetine, venlafaxine, nefazodone and paroxetine. "Compared with placebo, [these] antidepressants do not produce clinically significant improvements in patients who initially have moderate or even very severe depression," he concludes (PloS Medicine, DOI: 10.1371/journal.pmed.0050045).

However, David Nutt, head of psychopharmacology at Bristol University, UK, defends SSRIs, saying that if they provide some sort of placebo benefit, this should not be discounted.

Eli Lilly, which makes Prozac, said that "extensive scientific and medical experience has demonstrated it is an effective antidepressant".

Anyone taking these drugs should consult their doctor before coming off them."

I think the generic version of lexapro is listed up there.

Maybe you can ask your doctor for a placebo without side effects, like sugar pill? I mean, placebo can do wonders for your mental and physical health, however having taken prozac before I'd say the long-term side effects weren't worth the short-term placebo effect.



Mage
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22 Mar 2008, 2:07 pm

Oh, and they also make you fat:
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/opi ... s-fat.html

"WALK down any street in America and you'll see the effects of the "obesity epidemic". Two-thirds of adults, more than 130 million people, are now considered overweight, and nearly half of these are classified as obese. Those who are overweight by 45 kilograms or more are the fastest-growing group of the overweight in the US. Accompanying these skyrocketing figures are increases in diabetes, heart problems and deaths.

In print and on the airwaves there are numerous stories about how fast food, large portions, sedentary lifestyles and poverty are playing big parts in weight gain, while government bodies desperately throw together public health programmes to educate people about the dangers their lifestyles bring.

Yet one culprit is rarely mentioned: the broad range of psychiatric drugs that can cause substantial weight gain. They include drugs marketed as antidepressants (such as amitriptyline, doxepin and imipramine), mood stabilisers (including lithium and valproate) and antipsychotics (including clozapine, olanzapine and chlorpromazine). After 10 years on lithium, for example, two-thirds of patients put on around 10 kilograms. And in December 2006, The New York Times published an article based on internal documents from the drug company Eli Lilly which indicated that it had intentionally downplayed the side effects of olanzapine, which it sells as Zyprexa. The company's data showed that one-third of patients who have taken the drug for a year gain at least 10 kilograms, and half of these gain at least 30 kilograms.

The mechanisms behind this weight gain appear complex and are certainly poorly understood. Some psychiatric drugs may impair the central nervous system's control of energy intake, leading to food cravings, whereas others, such as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), may alter a patient's metabolic rate. Worryingly, doctors are increasingly prescribing multiple psychiatric drugs for the same patient at the same time, even though many effects of doing so, including the effect on weight, have not been investigated.
“Doctors often fail to warn patients that the drugs they prescribe may increase their appetites”

We don't know how much these drugs are adding to Americans' waistlines, but the number of people affected is likely to be high. Prescriptions in the US for Zyprexa alone run into millions. In 2004, 32.6 million Americans purchased outpatient prescriptions for antidepressants, stimulants, antipsychotics and tranquillisers, up from 21 million in 1997. Overall, around 50 million Americans - that's 1 in 6 of the population - currently take at least one psychotropic drug. From a crude look at the numbers, it seems that they could potentially be causing a significant - and growing - portion of America's obesity problem.

It seems surprising then that commentators rarely make the link between psychiatric drugs and the obesity epidemic. For example, a report broadcast last year by the PBS TV network called Fat: What no one is telling you included a vast array of lifestyle and physiological factors that could be contributing to weight gain. Psychiatric drugs were not mentioned.

Another factor that the media and governments have failed to publicise is that rising obesity in teenagers and even young children over the past 10 to 15 years coincides with a fivefold increase in prescriptions of antipsychotic drugs in those age groups, and that children taking these drugs are even more likely to gain weight than adults are. We don't know how much of this increase in obesity is due to the drugs, but shouldn't somebody be finding out?

Though drug-induced weight gain is potentially a worldwide problem, it is a particular concern in the US because American culture is so eager to label negative feelings and problems as evidence that a person is mentally ill - and to push drugs as a supposedly quick fix. Furthermore, doctors often fail to warn patients that the drugs they prescribe may increase their appetites, and people labelled as mentally ill often learn to attribute all their problems - including eating more - to their psychological disorder. In a curious article last May in the American Journal of Psychiatry (vol 164, p 708), two doctors even proposed that obesity be classified as a mental illness. One likely consequence of that would be another massive increase in the prescribing of psychotropic drugs, resulting, no doubt, in another upsurge in obesity statistics.

Recent revelations that some antidepressants may work little better than placebo in most cases (see "Mindfields: Talking down antidepressants") make the potential scale of the side effects more worrying than ever. Anyone taking psychiatric drugs who is concerned about weight gain and its associated ill effects should be reminded that to stop taking them suddenly - and what is gradual enough for one person may be far too sudden for another - can precipitate serious withdrawal symptoms. But at the very least, every person considering taking these drugs needs to be able to make a fully informed decision about whether to get their prescription filled. The government and the media must take the lead in ensuring that drug companies disclose the extent of the weight gain that their drugs cause and in educating the public about the risks."



merrymadscientist
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22 Mar 2008, 2:07 pm

But taking a placebo that you know is a placebo wont work - it is only in these double blind trials that placebo works. Otherwise you could take a cube of sugar each day yourself - no need for doctors.



merrymadscientist
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22 Mar 2008, 2:11 pm

Yes, psychiatric drugs can cause weight gain - I was on zyprexa for 6 months and put on about 6 kg in that time (doctor assured me I wouldnt put on weight. Why on earth did I believe her). However, most SSRIs do not cause significant weight gain, some cause weight loss overall such as prozac and effexor.



cas
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22 Mar 2008, 2:32 pm

Here is a relevant post from a linguistics blog: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/language ... 05420.html

It talks about how we have little language for talking about what the study measured in layman's terms, and how this leads to misrepresentation of the study in the media. Further down the page on that link, it talks about what the study said itself and has some graphs.

People should take side effects into account (for me antidepressants were bad, and I lost weight and they made me feel scared/bad emotionally), but it does seem that their benefits are being undertold by the media right now. Our society is not very friendly to medication and mental illnesses.



Ana54
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22 Mar 2008, 2:33 pm

How come I got nasty withdrawal from mine that I'm still not over?



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22 Mar 2008, 3:06 pm

Sounds like they need to try something a little stronger. I take Seroquel, Neurontin, and Lexapro, and there's no way a placebo could be substituted as replacement, without me knowing. Those drugs, changed who I was to noticeable degree, but I was anticipating change, and was more than willing to accept it. I actually demanded it. They tried to give me Paxil, which was virtually uneffective. I told the Dr's that I would eventually take my own life, if they couldn't prescribe something that would modify my thought processes, and/or state of mind.

I'm not sure which was more effective, tha Seroquel or the Neurontin(Gabapentin), because I started taking both simultaneously, but they definitely gave me the suppression/control that I needed. Yes, I was quite sedated for a couple months, until I got used to the new meds, but it was acceptable. I also take Lexapro, but I don't think it really does anything.

Paxil, Prozac, etc... might be helpful in very mild cases, but I think that anyone who suffers bad enough to seek medical help, should specify that they want something with a noticeable effect. Otherwise, you might just be waisting your time. :)


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22 Mar 2008, 3:55 pm

I'm kind of surprised by this. However, I don't have a high opinion of SSRI's anyway. From what I understand, they can destroy the sex drive and the ability to feel loving emotions. Those are very important things in life, in my opinion.

I actually take an antidepressant; but it's bupropion (Wellbutrin), which is believed to be a norepinepherine and dopamine reuptake inhibitor, and I like it. If my doctor had offered an SSRI, I would have refused. When he prescribed it to me, he only told me the name Wellbutrin at first, and it took me several questions to get a vague idea of what he was prescribing me. :? .



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22 Mar 2008, 5:52 pm

I have been SSRI in the last ten years. Twice I tried to quit and each time I precipitated in an abyss of hopelessness. I don't believe in this studies. Moreover they look to have no respect for the two groops (placebo and Prozac).



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22 Mar 2008, 6:25 pm

I though that study was only saying SSRIs didn't help depression. From their release there were always doubts about their efficacy for that problem. I don't think you can say the same for anxiety and OCD. I'm taking Zoloft, an SSRI, for both of those problems, and it is working somewhat well for me. I still have some anxiety, but it is much less pronounced. I can read a computer-related book in a public place without worrying what someone might think.

Quote:
I'd like to know whether or not it's worth it


You are the best judge of that. Has it been working for you. Do you feel happier, less anxious, less obsessive? Or not?



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22 Mar 2008, 11:46 pm

The thing is you probably shouldn't be taking SSRI's with mild or moderate depression anyways. You should take the dope if the benefits outweigh the risks/bad. But if you're mildly afflicted then what's the point of taking pharmaceuticals?

Quote:
But taking a placebo that you know is a placebo wont work - it is only in these double blind trials that placebo works. Otherwise you could take a cube of sugar each day yourself - no need for doctors.


You could do this with other things, not just pills. Drinking tea, exercise or taking a B complex and being convinced that it's a cure can help you. Right now, I'm convinced that vigorous exercise is controlling my depression/mood problems. There is evidence claiming it will and it can't hurt me.



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23 Mar 2008, 1:06 am

Ana54 wrote:
How come I got nasty withdrawal from mine that I'm still not over?

it's not uncommon for the withdrawal to last a few weeks or more. look up ssri discontinuation syndrome.

When i went on Prozac for a while i believe it really helped me. I didn't notice anything different, and was actually really hoping nothing would happen to my personality, but i had a few good months. I was severely depressed and i finally started feeling happy (most of the time, i still had issues at school but those stopped when i switched out). after about a year of prozac i came off it. i don't think i tapered off or anything but i didn't feel any withdrawal symptoms which was surprising



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23 Mar 2008, 11:35 am

I'm betting this is because mild Depression isn't full-blown Clinical Depression, that is, it's a psychological thing rather then the chemical imbalances you see in full blown Clinical Depression. Basically, you have a bunch of mildly depressed people with psychological issues that are effecting their mood being told on TV commercials that their problems are the result of the type of chemical imbalance seen in people with severe depression. Anti-depressants only work if there actually is an actual chemical imbalance and not just psychological issues.


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23 Mar 2008, 1:42 pm

Well, I had positive effects from Lexapro that I hadn't expected, in addition to the reduction in anxiety that I had expected- specifically, a reduction in obsessive thoughts. It was only in retrospect that I realized that it was the Lexapro that helped to reduce the obsessive thinking, so that definitely was not a placebo effect.