Biggest turnoff to NT's = Innocense?

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Here's something I've mused over for a long time, had some other threads about my thoughts on the possibility of adult innocense possibly equaling vulgar immaturity in this world, and how here's something I haven't really brought up but I think it's definitely worth some thought and questioning.

Here's what I mean though, I've always noticed that the line between cool and uncool, attractive and unnattractive is pretty staggard and not only that but you could also have 2 computer geeks who look almost exactly a like, one people like and has no trouble with women whereas the other tends to revile people without doing a thing wrong. Although this is something I'd been thinking about in a completely different context for a long time, it really seems that innocense and lack of hardening or inward callousness is really the biggest thing that seems to just viscerally stab the opposit sex in the stomache when they see someone elses behavior.

I'm sure a lot of you have ended up seeing someone who you may have thought was at least physically cute but had a type of looks which you were used to seeing as a turnoff because the last person you knew who had that set of looks was immature, clingy, and may have been good natured but in way that might have just turned your stomache because it came off as weak or irresponsible. All of a sudden this new person talks to you and guess what; they're crisp, inwardly solid, on-point, articulate, and not only do you feel you could trust em but you kinda like em and all of a sudden rather than being turned off by em your kinda interested.

I guess that's what I'm talking about; being a geek in the sense of interests probably isn't even the clincher but it's that specific 'geek innocense' that's what drives people away. So what's the alternative? I'm not suggesting being a POS as a person but its almost like you really have to desensitize yourself, make yourself calous in certain ways, and enough to where if adversity hits you can be witty, sarcastic, and cohersively amiable just in the sense that they feel they're talking to someone who's potentially as bad as they are - on the other hand if you come off as easily offended, sensitized, and such people really see it as an intolerable weakness.
Mind you, I haven't been salty or shady like that for years but even once you get the act down and learn not to act that way, if you've been sheltered and still have a sheltered heart people can see it and while people won't do dirt on you as bad they'll still treat you like a nobody.

What I've done for a long time to curb-stomp my own innocense is to really do what I can to take in that darker and more scandalous side of things. Some of my favorite movies like Belly, Romper Stomper, L.A. Confidential, Training Day, Corrupter, Sin City, and a lot of the good Spike Lee or Clint Eastwood movies were that good IMO because they had that visceral underbelly of human nature drilled in. It's like the more of that I take in, absorb, and really try to feel from within myself on a gut level and the more I try to replace my own innocense with that the more I feel like I'm really making a lot of progress not only in terms of overcomming the 'disability' angle of my AS bu in terms of lessening my anxiety, getting along with people better, getting more respect from people, not having kindness or integrity seen as weakness as much as it used to be, and it's all because I've really done a lot to change my core understanding and feel for life.

As for NT women or even guys, whenever I think I've hardned myself to a good degree, all I have to do is catch them sitting down and talking at the end of the night and just feel the emotional current of the conversations between em (regardless of what they're talking about) and I realize, no matter what drugs I may have tried maybe 5 or 6 years ago, I'm really a damn churchboy and while being good natured and wholesome aren't a problem, being emotionally innocent or showing a predominance of that in your wiring will keep you completely locked outside the box socially.

Why is this in the relationship folder? My personal hypothesis is that the more I can really get some grime and dysphoria into my bottom line emotionality, I mean at the source where it won't be washed away by a good night's sleep, where I'm feeling depression while falling asleep and having some really bleak emotions hit me as I wake up, where I start to feel more and more like I'm living in Max Payne's type of world, the more I'm gonna see women go from being uncomfortable arround me to being more at home with me, actually liking me, and actually wanting to be arround me. I'm saying this because when I get past the social niceties, what I see in their eyes scares me, it's like they're WAY past me in this hardening process and for me to really be a good fit for any woman and have them think 'wow, this guy is cool', I really need to be completely devoid of innocense and then some. Not be a POS as a person, not lack integrity, just so that I come off as having all the potential and capability in the world of being as such and having my kindness, good nature, and character come off as strenths and choices rather than fear or weakness (when they see or think they see that in a man, it's like blood in the water to a shark IMO).

What's your thoughts on this? Agree? Disagree? Do I need to lay off the Spike Lee and cognac? Not that I'm checking to see if I should agree with this but I think it's a good topic for us to have on the table because I personaly think it's very true. Even if it isn't for the women, I'm doing this so when I do face all the visceral issues of what the world will try on me as an adult I won't be afraid of it, I'll shine through it, and also so that my day to day personality and presence isn't a liability arround the types of NT's who'd try to get me fired over 'not looking professional enough' (ie. not hardened or disciplined enough in acting like the stereotype of my profession when I'm on the clock); even if my fires professional job or even all my professional jobs are nothing like the pack of wolves I'm anticipating, I'll still be glad I did this to myself because I'll breath that much easier and sleep that much more easily at night knowing that I'm one of the people who does that as well as maybe the 2 or 3 top-dog NT's in the place and that no one will wanna test me or will back down quick if I show em a pretty lean cohersive side.

I doubt that innocence is a turnoff. Most of the NTs I know want a partner who is still a playful little child at heart. I've also noticed that the major thing about me that turns people off is that I make a lot of jaded, angry or cynical comments. Not only that, but my obvious lustfulness is another major turnoff for a lot of people.

Just a couple thoughts, because I can really relate to where you are coming from.
Maybe you are just interested in the wrong type of girls.
I think this is one of my big problems. But I am not sure what the right girls are for me.

I don't think that innocense is the problem personally, it just seems that way. For me it is just the fact that I see things and analyse them in my mind in ways that most people just don't. Much like what you are doing here. It's really mind boggling because the missing piece is so subtle, but the older I get the more blatanly obvious it becomes.

Anyway what you were describing really reminds me of fight club.
Have you seen it ?

Another one you might like is the 25th hour. with Ed Norton as well

I've noticed some of that too but it seems like you have to be able to get lost in the moment with that in addition to having a rather toxic center of gravity hidden beneath it.

My problem with that area is pretty complex. It seems that for some reason the girls who are real innocent and wholesome have always turned me off. When I was at my last AS support group something was mentioned by the psych heading it that I think explains a lot for me on self-examination. He talked about how most people like someone who's positive but that where someone is inherantly comfortable operating - whether it's 20% negative and 80% positive or 60% negative and 40% positive has a lot to do with genetics and while people can inch themselves above their natural tendencies by 5 to 10% its unrealistic to feel real stable on the opposit end. I think my center of gravity and where I feel the strongest and the realest is with 2/3 negative and 1/3 positive - positivity in the form of a strong 'can do' attitude and internal locus of control rather than victim mentality. If I'm too positive I feel off balance and sickeningly vulnerable. I always wondered why all those giggly church girls or even the really quaint cute yuppy girls who may have checked me out turned me off and why when they saw my personality they were kinda saddened, it wasn't my AS as much as the fact that I just naturally crave a harder view of life for my own inward strength and stability and crave a girl who's at least somewhat in the harder crowd. Yeah, I want her to be nice, I want her to have a lot of integrity and character, I want to be able to trust her, but she'd be hardened a bit, judgemental of the things I am, and for me to be properly on that level I'd need to have met my own standards of pettiness toward self to a greater extent than I have yet.



Regardless of whether or not people can see it, it seems like they're instincts and subconscious do more than enough thinking for em and that this is why they have all these biases towards innocense that they themselves don't have any articulate understanding of and probably never felt the need to. If it weren't true though I can guarantee I'd be finding a lot more opportunites and still wouldn't feel like I could blow away all dating potentials without doing anything wrong just by not being in perfect emotional alignment with em. To me, being a major self-hyperanalyst, this is the exact area I've boiled that lack of alignment down to.

(Edit: I think this is another reason why wether it's The Infamous, Hell on Earth, or Murda Muzik, I can't get enough Mobb Deep - Prodigy and Havoc have just the right kind of energy in their beats and lyrics to where it's like a vitamin for my emotional spine)



Yep, seen em both. I liked both of em but I still liked movies like Million Dollar Babie, Mystic River, and the such more when I saw em. 25th Hour did tackle some pretty visceral issues and yeah, definitely an interesting Spike Lee pic, but probably nothing I'd go out of my way to watch twice.

Last edited by techstepgenr8tion on 02 Oct 2005, 8:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I don't think he's saying one should be an a$$hole, or be angry. You can be friendly and jovial, BUT you cannot be seen as being emotionally weak (AKA innocent). Innocence is seen as weakness. Humans are mammals, and as such we are programmed to weed out the weaker members. This is why we have Alpha Males.

Yeah, this often happens to me; and, if anything, it just turns people off even more to me when I'm obviously not happy.

And this is why alpha males can be skinny guys can be alpha when they have that certain diplomatic cohersive player-glib. I used to look up to that trait just because it came off as an incredible psychological strength and I think a lot of that is what people attribute to someone looking like they'd have a lot of wirey strength - it's all attitude.

A few meetings back at my group I mentioned that the one time I'd been in a drive through just a month ago, some punk highschooler yelled "Hey fa***t!" at me just because sometimes when my neurology is really far gone, no matter what I'm thinking I've this real bright-eyed chipper Howdy-doody look in my eyes. From the fact that I ignored it and spoke in a completely different manner when I ordered my food, I could sense some confusion in the car behind me. One of the guys in my group said that not only would he never in a million years pegged me as gay but that I came off as someone who had a lot of wirey strength and someone who he wouldn't mess with. The psych who's our group leader and a black belt in Tae Kwon Do even sincerely seconded that. Looks like I'm not doing bad in supportive crowds and sometimes even contestive crowds but women's instincts to read for even buried and hidden weakness are almost unfair in terms of how brutally well they can do it.

edit: the greatest beauty in all this is it not only gives me an explanation that at gut level just feels right but it also gives me a solution and a goal to work towards. I can't even begin to explain how much I need that...

Last edited by techstepgenr8tion on 02 Oct 2005, 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Oh, anymore I LOVE that feeling, it actually occurs to me that I'm starting to feel like a real man. My reaction to that depression though I think is the key because I see all the more reason to smile, act like everything is ok, and I feel more confidence in myself to the extent that my inner self is really starting to darken in such ways.

A lot of this seems beyond me...but being negative is seen as positive trait? I'm having trouble understanding this.

Not exactly, I'm indicating that hardening is a positive trait. I'm not saying that's how it works for everyone, usually I think if you need it that much you'll usually feel some kind of inkling and it'll have a major role as to why things aren't working out regardless of social skills. There's numorous reasons why this may not be needed for some people - some people are just liked regardless, others already naturally have it to such an extent that they have to beat it down with lots of positive. One good example, I know a guy who was a boxer, broke a plexiglass window with his head when he was tripping once, went to work with kidney stones - it surprised me a guy like that liked stuff like Bare Naked Ladies and other pop but then again from that perspective I can kinda see it; a lot of that relates back to personal chemistry and what your checks and balances are. I've also known plenty of modern day John Waynes who are hooked on gangster rap and they're chillin as long as they don't get drunk.

Not at all in my experience... Being more hard-edged/bitter/callous made some people like me more... but it made most women like me a lot less. The ones I was attracted to anyway.

EDIT: Its important to remember that if there is an 'alpha male' who is getting lots & lots of women, its usually just the one type of whorish, stuck-up girl... which is not a type of girl that I want to have anything to do with. If you're looking for a certain kind of girl, you're much better off catering to that type then trying to be an 'alpha male'... and it is important to realize that if you're genetically predisposed to monogamy, then trying to learn how to be a 'playa' isn't going to get you any closer to what you really want.

Also, I don't buy the excuse of "It's all just Darwinian' anymore. Being able to f**k anything that walks isn't very Darwinian in today's modern world. Being a good father-figure and being strong career-wise are. It is the quality, not quantity, of your children that will ensure your family's success... The world is overpopulated as it is

Last edited by AbominableSnoCone on 02 Oct 2005, 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I know where your comming from, but with some of those girls (I know what types of girls your talking about) I feel like I'm losing from both ends at the same time - if that makes any sense

Are you trying to say that you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't (act like a hard-ass)?

In which case I used to agree with you... and now am just very confused and conflicted about it... so I'm just throwing in the towel for a little while until I am in a more stable mental state.

With certain women, yeah. Trouble is with me, I'm way too perceptive of how hardened most women are, when I see a lot guile and sleakness in them I feel the need to meet em on their level, and often times I don't get the kind of reaction I was hoping for. One example, I've got this russian chick in one of my classes (or at least I think she is) and again, real business-like, a lot of sleakness, had been checking me a bit, and of course I felt the need to match vibes a bit, at least as best I knew how. It's wierd because one class period she kept looking over, I got a wierd reaction that I definitely wasn't expecting out of the fact that she saw me grabbing for a Strbucks frap I had in the next seat (It looked like she was either fascinated or thought I had half a flask of JD in it - neither or those explanations make any sense). Next class I was kinda watching her out of the corner of my eye when I was talking to my friends about class stuff, she was hanging out with her group, and giving these glances in my direction that kinda looked a little worried and or hurt (I'm not gonna say it was me, I'm sure as hell not gonna even assume I'm the center of her thoughts, I think that's arrogant and any relation it had to me could have been all in my head. I did make the effort to get caught glancing at her a couple times, kinda trying to show some reciprocity. I ended up of course on the opposit row of computers from hers (ie. directly in front, our view of eachother blocked by em), and there was one point where her friend started talking about a firm she works with that I'd actually like to get an internship with. I ended up standing up at a low in the conversation and asking her a little bit about the place; I kinda felt like I got a wierd reception from all 3 of em on that, subtly wierd, not too bad, but on the other hand. Her friend was right next to her, she was kinda looking at me though the whole conversation, more analytical of what I was saying than anything else - as I'd expect. One of her friends mentioned that she herself at least was going to a bar across the street from the college that night. A bunch of other people in my group went, I didn't because to be honest I felt like I was short on social steam and just thought I'd be a liability to myself. That's about where it stands. As far as thinking that situation's lost I'll put it this way - I saw a lot of little things and caught enough nonverbal calculus to tell me things were slipping that night (pretty much over nothing) and that I'd be better off forgetting about her. She's just gonna look at me, whatever the heck way its gonna be, and just like most women if I try and throw them a rope, make it real easy for em to strike a conversation with me but still - not much comes of it.

I can see where you're coming from here, and to some extent I echo your sentiments.
For the less physically imposing men amongst us, such as myself- it does comes down to the psychological stuff- the way you behave, move, speak, etc.
And often that stuff can give off the completely wrong impression anyway- like some of the biggest scariest looking guys I've known, that I usually try and avoid, have ended up being really awesome friendly people who wouldn't harm a fly.

Then there's also those kinda scrawny looking folks who have that whole 'psycho' thing going on, where even the huge scary guys are afraid of them. "Don't mess with him, he's CRAZY!"
...it's all to do with the eyes I think. You need this sort of messed up fearless insane look.