*"The Internet : Dangerous ?"*

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I'm starting this thread because it is a discussion that has developed on another thread "Could your Child(ren) Homeschool if S/he wanted to?".

I had already thought a lot about this in the context of my own son, but i suddenly realised that this could be one of those "key" issues, resulting from major change in society, as women's right to work and own property was once, or when factories altered the face of the traditional "son following in father's footsteps", apprenticeships etc, in the wake of the industrial revolution.

Is the internet dangerous for children? Should its use be rationed, negotiated, left up to child to decide about?

Is its use no worse than the hours in school, better even? Is it the "new" school? Is internet use the new apprenticeship? Is this what life will be like for everyone in 20 years; hours in front of the screen "grinding" ? Like people in factories before robots were invented? Is it the beginning of the move to virtual "bodilessness"?

Are cases of apparent psychological addiction to it just differences of opinion about how long ( on the internet), is too long? resulting from different beliefs about what its role should be, what it is for, what children should be doing, etc? Might this difference of viewpoint be responsible for the increasing conflict over internet use between children and parents, for whom children's passion/commitment to it/investment in it looks like addiction?

Children used to be made to stop reading novels, seen as morally corrupting, etc, and go out doors or read improving works. Each new generation disapproves, profoundly, of something that their children are doing, and sees it as catastrophic.

For a bit of history on the discussion please see at : ( from the 7th post on that page, plus the next)

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp1304421.html#1304421

And for a bit of background on the psychology of internet use, especially Massively Multiplayer Online Role Play Games, please see at:

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus and: http://www.nickyee.com/

For the poll: Withdrawal of internet as punishment is a separate issue from how much they may use it in general.

Last edited by ouinon on 29 Mar 2008, 4:08 pm, edited 6 times in total.

NB: I realise that by law internet use is obviously entirely up to the parent, but what I would like to know is whether, within that relationship as legal guardian etc, parents allow their children any say in determining internet use. Does what your child wants/says have any weight, when it comes to internet use?

PS: Just discovered another thread; "Video game time limits", lurking on page 5 of the forum, at:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt53996.html

Last edited by ouinon on 29 Mar 2008, 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I used to be completely addicted to reading. Not classics and great literature, but the sort you take back to the stall afterwards to exchange for another six at half price, or soft science fiction, crime/detective stories etc from the library. I did this in favour of anything else.

It would eat up all my weekday free-time in the evenings after school, all two and a half hours of it ( 16.30 -20.30 , less teatime table-laying and eating, from 17.45- 18.30, and homework time which I usually restricted to the absolute minimum possible to get away with, between 45 mins and an hour per evening).

My mother would have to call me several times before I would lay down whatever book I was reading, and come lay the table for tea. Until I was about 13 I used to write stories and draw too. But from about then on I read. And when I didn't read I daydreamed/fantasised. I used to put on a classical record and sit on my sofabed and fantasise, for hours.

Saturday mornings I bulk borrowed from the library, passed by the second hand book stall for another six, and spent my pocket money on a huge slab of chocolate, or more likely a paper bag of chocolate covered coconut ice at the stall next to it. I would go home and hole up in my room, apart from mealtimes, which I survived by fantasising.

Homework would be done in a panic stricken rush on sunday afternoon.

I was addicted to virtual reality. I think that my susceptibility to it had quite a lot to do with my addictions to food opioids gluten and casein, ( food intolerance/sensitivity), aswell as to the common painkiller sugar. I was a passive consumer of anything cheap/free which would transport me away from my real life, which had become so meaningless as a result of school.

If the internet had existed then I would have been a net-junkie. But the real problem was school which had turned my life into a desert of 45/90 minute slots doing things I wasn't interested in, a series of boxes to be filled with tidily separated subjects which never overlapped.

Addiction is the sign of unmet needs, of needs denied, of suppressed desires. Of emptiness. Of feelings of powerlessness. The internet doesn't do that to people.

Last edited by ouinon on 30 Mar 2008, 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

One thing that happens in our household is that computer use generates fighting. When internet usuage is not an option, because the internet is down or some other reason, as it currently is (I'm typing from the office), my children seem happier. No fighting over whose turn it is, and no fighting over the fact that dinner is ready and, sorry, game must go on pause.

And they don't really miss it, not past the first few hours, once they get over the fact the special event they wanted to go on-line for has now passed them by.

My son's main self-calming behavior is pacing, a process during which he continually crosses the room, slams into furniture and walls, and thinks up his most amazing ideas. He really doesn't use the internet for that. The internet is simply entertainment for him. Not something from which I've seen him derive much of anything beyond the fun of play, and in a very "normal" way.

But, I most definitely want my son to learn to type, and type efficiently, since writing by hand is so difficult for him. I had a rule for a while, that he could play whatever he wanted on the computer for as long as he wanted, provided he practiced typing 15 minutes for every half hour of play. So what does he choose? To not use the internet at all.

Long run, I don't worry about my son's internet usage. It doesn't seem to have an overly strong draw for him; he generally self regulates fairly well. It's just the issues with having to share with his sister, and the frustration we can have from a bad DSL line, that cause all the problems.

I would say his average is under an hour a day. Some days zero, some days 5 hours, average maybe 1/2 to 1 hour.

My daughter is the one most addicted to the internet, in that once she is on, she absolutely will not get off. Dinner, bedtime, whatever ... she won't leave the dang computer. She is not Aspie, so I can't call it her "special interest." Very clearly, with her, it's simple addiction, and not healthy. And when things aren't going right because of our bad DSL, she is really horrible to deal with. To the point where my husband and I are staring at each other and asking, "this is supposed to FUN? She wants to do this WHY?" We strongly encourage her to find other things to do with her time.

I don't think one needs to play on the internet to acquire good computer skills. It's not like my children are creating websites or writing in HTML. My daughter is dressing virtual dolls at Fashion Polly, most of the time. My son meets up with friends at various role playing sites. Their choices reflect normal childhood play, which is a learning process all by itself, but not one better than provided by their other methods of play, that I can see.

But it is so very funny to watch my son, because he and his friends will CALL each other, on the telephone, to run their play at the role playing sites. Forget typing, lol. Let's get on the phone and wander around together! It totally cracks me up.

I think if I saw my children really benefiting from their internet time, using it as a calming time, or gaining skills from it, I wouldn't think too much about how much time they invested, as long as they were getting their "have to's" done. But that isn't what we really see with our children. So, we do pay attention to the balance.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 29 Mar 2008, 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

But it can cruelly take advantage of it, without improving any of the underlying causes.

Question: have you eliminated the gluton and cassiene from your own diet, now? And sugar?

That is a long story. Which you can read all about at : http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt45945.html
First discovered that had wheat intolerance 16 years ago. Been stopping and starting ever since. Sugar I am still consuming from time to time in small quantities mostly.

I don't think that the internet" cruelly takes advantage" of anyone or anything. I think that someone who is addicted to it because of their own feelings of powerlessness, emptiness, etc, may even gain some comfort from their use of it, as I did from reading. Did you look at Nick Yee's site? There is a good article/paper on "Therapy and Dependency", about exactly this sort of thing.

Last edited by ouinon on 30 Mar 2008, 2:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

I wish you all the success in the world with it. I am sure it is very difficult - regulating our own food choices seems to be very difficult, even when we know that doing so makes us feel better. Closing my eyes and sending you supportive energy on this endeveaor.

Unfortunately, theory is not going to get these files moved off of my desk.

My life was happier when I used shopping to relieve all those feelings.

Or, better yet, strenuous physical activity.

This one is too easy.

And I don't have TIME to dig into all the sources behind the needs.

My 10 yo NT son played world of warcraft - at the time, his whole class was playing, so I let him play, too. (in the mean time I have become a lot wizer, so don't post I was a bad Mum letting him play)
He was totally addicted to it, and played for hours. Was is a foul mood and had meltdowns after he had played.
One of his class mates, who played even more, got social phobia and stopped going to school. He had anxiety attacks when he came to class.
This scared my son. He ended saying he was addicted and would we please cancel his account? (He used the word addicted)
He stopped playing and has been a different child ever since. Actually much happier.

I think that it is really important to distinguish between the addictive behaviour/tendency, and the "things" in the environment which are particularly "usable" in the addiction dynamic.

In the same way that it is important to remember that headaches are symptoms, and even if you use a painkiller at the time, you still need to work out what caused it to prevent it happening again, so with compulsive internet use which is making someone unhappy and/or disagreeable; why are they spending so much time doing something which makes them unhappy/unwell/unpleasant?

That's the bit to look at. Not just blame the internet, or limit its use.

Theoretically someone who is prevented from engaging in addictive behaviour in relation to something, will direct their addictive patterns towards something else more permitted/available/inconspicuous. The classic example of course is alcoholics who eat candy instead. Smokers who eat more. etc.

This whole discussion is leading me to another question:

How does the addiction rate - for anything - compare in the AS population, to the NT population? So far all the posts here admitting unhealthy addiction to the internet are about NT's ... is that true elsewhere? Do Aspies tend to be less addictive? Or the same? Or more? Is there any correlation? Does it depend on type of addiction?

Don't you mean computer scarcity? ! Exactly, it is the business of managing scarce resources which causes the problem. I have had that one. Quite a lot. And I finally worked out that the pressure went up because I had cooked the meal and expected my son to appreciate it by eating immediately. There was no "need" for him to eat at that moment. If he is not hungry then my insistence that he stop something he is involved in does seem slightly unreasonable. I wouldn't appreciate it myself. So now I almost never insist on it. And it is very noticeable that the times when I do demand that he stop and eat, because they are for "real" reasons like being ready in time for Karate afterwards, or that the food won't be so nice when cold, he comes willingly and no problem.

Quite; it is in fact not addictive. If it really were they would find everything else boring, and wait for it to return, would be lost without it. My son read all 7 Narnia books for the first time when the computer was being reinstalled after massive virus attack recently. But has read nothing that long since . How do I know that Narnia books or other childrens stories are more valuable than what he does on the net? He assures me that he finds the active strategic puzzle solving elements in games more gripping than most other things rright now. I can believe him or not. He seems happy. I believe him.

My son does that a lot too. In between "sets" on the net, at some game, he will leap up and pace, etc. I used to ask him if he needed the loo; that was a concern still 2 years ago, but no, it's what he does when he is thinking through or processing a game episode, or almost anything, when he is telling stories etc. Play is how children learn. That is learning. Because activity on the net only looks like play does not mean that it is not profound learning.

Last edited by ouinon on 30 Mar 2008, 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Well, the kids may do just fine, but I don't. You'll find me looking for an excuse to get to my "office" or somewhere else I know I find access. I'll be agitated until I figure out how to get my fix. Vacations, etc., are usually OK. But those DSL issues ... nope. Not for me.

I am trying to keep my daughter from reaching the same level I'm at, and so far it's successful. I do think it is a type of addiction.

As for the other question, I was kind of hoping that I could count on "Aspie son, won't assume addictive behaviors," but I knew that was a pipe dream. Still, I think it is his own nature to be less of an addictive personality than his sister. Wierdly, he is simply a much more content and easy individual. As long as he gets his pacing in, anyway. Would I be oversimplying it to say that the beauty of Aspie children is that once you've figured out what makes the particular person tick, it's relatively easy to help that person stay happy?

What do you mean by DSL issues?

Yes, re level of interdependence on it myself too. It has become half/part of "how" I think.

But I don't think that that is necessarily addiction. I believe it may be the same as using cars in society. I may be generally anti-car , but have to admit that they have practically become part of people's bodies. ( Just remembered arguing on some other site a year ago that cars were an addiction, agreeing how similar to cigarettes they are. )

I think the internet is very likely a similar cyber style development, in which people will become more and more "connected" with central data bases, and with other people by net, to the point that our worries now will look absurdly old fashioned. They will wonder how we managed without it. It will be like a permanent fixture/accesssory.

I don't see this as addiction model, but as a new way to live. It only feels like an addiction if you tell yourself you shouldn't be doing it so much. Is it actually bad for you? I notice it impinges on things, like any activity, but "bad for me"? , no, not once i got over thinking i mustn't do it.

Today we bought a second computer to deal with the scarcity problem! We have been thinking about it for weeks, all of us. And today we did. ( With a super powerful graphic card, and memory, and am hoping can finally get moving on Second Life! )

My son finally with many gasps and deep breaths managed to tell me a couple of days ago that he was beginning to get very upset about times i tell him to log-off ( because I want to go on) just when he has achieved some super complex something, and it gets wiped. And suddenly I "got", like a memory of my own childhood, the realisation that to him these things are deeply important projects, and how i would, and in fact DID, feel, at not being allowed to carry stuff on got more than half hours here and there. I realised that I had been doing the same to him as had been done to me. And so that's why we finally got the second computer today.

Last edited by ouinon on 30 Mar 2008, 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

... now i really have to go to bed, especially as we lose an hour tonight as clocks change and we have visitors tomorrow, the lovely homeschooling family whose son my son gets on so well with.

Goodnight!

Last edited by ouinon on 30 Mar 2008, 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

I may be wrong, but I believe Aspies may be more prone to internet addiction than NTs. With so much information on the internet, it's easy to get addicted because of our crave for knowledge of our special interest, combined with how easy it is to access this information online.

It's easy to get addicted because of our social issues, many Aspies tend to do better socializing online than face-to-face (I know this is the case for me).

The internet can be a safe haven away from sensory issues as well. Overall there's just way too many ways for Aspies to get addicted to the internet. And I don't think the internet is "dangerous", in the end it's up to your son or daughter to control themselves and maintain responsibility. I will admit I am addicted to the internet, but despite that I have a part-time job and do well in school.