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Fred2670
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23 Apr 2008, 5:36 am

skafather84 wrote:
it is the crusades all over again.


bout damn time they admitted as much
wouldnt need a damn draft

show me a Muslim and I'll show you a terrorist
but then who will have to kill all the Christians?

oh ya China nvm


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jfrmeister
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23 Apr 2008, 12:32 pm

snake321 wrote:

What is a cout-matial rate?


Spelling Nazi! :-b


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23 Apr 2008, 12:41 pm

skafather84 wrote:
jfrmeister wrote:
Having people with criminal records isn't necessarily a bad thing. I did 4 years in the Marines on a drug waiver. Some of the most decorated units in the military also have the highest cout-matial rates. Most famous of these was VMF-214 "The Black Sheep"



criminals and thugs make the best soldiers, really??


It would seem to be the case.

I was having a conversation with the VP of the company I work for. He's a former 25 year L.A. County Sherriff. We were talking about "bad apple cops" and why police departments aren't more agressive at firing them. He said "Ther reason we tollerate these as*hole, nazi cops is because they're always the first ones to run into a burning building".

The principle also holds true for soldiers. Some criminal thugs, when given a rifle and told to take a hill, will be the first to the top.


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pbcoll
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23 Apr 2008, 12:46 pm

zendell wrote:
monty wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Cyanide wrote:
Oh boy...so when they run out of criminals, THEN they'll start the draft?

No, we'll start offering amnesty to Mexicans in exchange. :wink:


Actually, we already have. Military service is a well known path to citizenship. 25,000 have done this since 2002, and another 40,000 are eligible.

http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:qD ... cd=1&gl=us


If we advertised this throughout 3rd world countries, maybe we could have a military composed entirely of immigrants. Then we wouldn't have to fight any of our own wars.


You have to have a green card to be legally eligible for this path to citizenship.

Odin, like Rome in her decay, the US is using guns for hire ("private security contractors"), basically ex-soldiers that get paid vastly more than actual soldiers but are subject to less oversight, to make up for shortfalls in the military proper.

Maybe the generals an politicians should read Machiavelli - he strongly advised against using mercenaries (using Third World soldiers in exchange for residency would be a form of mercenary use) because they have no loyalty to their masters and are therefore a threat (especially if you can't do without them). Neither ex-soldiers from, say, the vicious Chilean military nor Third World people looking for a First World job could be expected to be an more loyal than mercenaries have ever been. The Roman experience certainly supports this view.


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23 Apr 2008, 1:57 pm

pbcoll wrote:
zendell wrote:
monty wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Cyanide wrote:
Oh boy...so when they run out of criminals, THEN they'll start the draft?

No, we'll start offering amnesty to Mexicans in exchange. :wink:


Actually, we already have. Military service is a well known path to citizenship. 25,000 have done this since 2002, and another 40,000 are eligible.

http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:qD ... cd=1&gl=us


If we advertised this throughout 3rd world countries, maybe we could have a military composed entirely of immigrants. Then we wouldn't have to fight any of our own wars.


You have to have a green card to be legally eligible for this path to citizenship.

Odin, like Rome in her decay, the US is using guns for hire ("private security contractors"), basically ex-soldiers that get paid vastly more than actual soldiers but are subject to less oversight, to make up for shortfalls in the military proper.

Maybe the generals an politicians should read Machiavelli - he strongly advised against using mercenaries (using Third World soldiers in exchange for residency would be a form of mercenary use) because they have no loyalty to their masters and are therefore a threat (especially if you can't do without them). Neither ex-soldiers from, say, the vicious Chilean military nor Third World people looking for a First World job could be expected to be an more loyal than mercenaries have ever been. The Roman experience certainly supports this view.


Depends what you are loyal to. After all, how many soldiers join through patriotism, and how many are there for the pay/perks/retirement plan?


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23 Apr 2008, 2:12 pm

Yes, zendell, but at the very least they were usually raised in your country, have lived there, have family ties there, etc. If you hire mercenaries from anywhere, they have absolutely no ties and no interest in even your country's survival, let alone success or way of life. If you're losing, mercenaries will rationally enough just quit or change sides. Your own soldiers are unlikely to desert, let alone to take arms against you if it's an existential threat. Also, soldiers are making some level of career commitment to your military, mercenaries are just guns for hire.


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23 Apr 2008, 3:00 pm

It's worth noting there is a world of difference between the roman-style "recruit a nation wholesale and call them mercs" system, and paying a handful of troops to support yours, often acting as individuals and advisors in local units, and even the behind the scenes arms-dealing sort of mercenary. A well-paid mercenary in the right place can bring a huge amount of experience to unseasoned draftees, and perhaps even win battles. Any modern mercenary who ever hopes to get paid is probably not going to run away at the first round fired. He probably wont ever die for your cause, but he will happily kill for it, so long as it pays.


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pbcoll
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23 Apr 2008, 3:36 pm

Macbeth wrote:
It's worth noting there is a world of difference between the roman-style "recruit a nation wholesale and call them mercs" system, and paying a handful of troops to support yours, often acting as individuals and advisors in local units, and even the behind the scenes arms-dealing sort of mercenary. A well-paid mercenary in the right place can bring a huge amount of experience to unseasoned draftees, and perhaps even win battles. Any modern mercenary who ever hopes to get paid is probably not going to run away at the first round fired. He probably wont ever die for your cause, but he will happily kill for it, so long as it pays.


They're not a handful of troops, in Iraq they're second in numbers only to the regular US military. Don't forget that also many of the Coalition of the Billing were fairly openly bribed to send in troops - which usually just stayed in their bases and did nothing.
It's lucky for the US that the insurgency is stupid enough to take no prisoners and that, by historical standards, US-allied casualties are very low in Iraq. In these circumstances, mercenaries are fairly reliable (if they're not dying in large numbers, they'll continue to work for you). But like Rome, the US is increasingly dependent on foreign mercenaries - who else is going to fight future wars, if not foreigners paid either in US passports or lots of money?
What particularly bothers me is that the same US public that was so gung-ho about going into Iraq is so unwilling to shed blood or pay taxes to actually fight that war.


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23 Apr 2008, 4:42 pm

pbcoll wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
It's worth noting there is a world of difference between the roman-style "recruit a nation wholesale and call them mercs" system, and paying a handful of troops to support yours, often acting as individuals and advisors in local units, and even the behind the scenes arms-dealing sort of mercenary. A well-paid mercenary in the right place can bring a huge amount of experience to unseasoned draftees, and perhaps even win battles. Any modern mercenary who ever hopes to get paid is probably not going to run away at the first round fired. He probably wont ever die for your cause, but he will happily kill for it, so long as it pays.


They're not a handful of troops, in Iraq they're second in numbers only to the regular US military. Don't forget that also many of the Coalition of the Billing were fairly openly bribed to send in troops - which usually just stayed in their bases and did nothing.
It's lucky for the US that the insurgency is stupid enough to take no prisoners and that, by historical standards, US-allied casualties are very low in Iraq. In these circumstances, mercenaries are fairly reliable (if they're not dying in large numbers, they'll continue to work for you). But like Rome, the US is increasingly dependent on foreign mercenaries - who else is going to fight future wars, if not foreigners paid either in US passports or lots of money?
What particularly bothers me is that the same US public that was so gung-ho about going into Iraq is so unwilling to shed blood or pay taxes to actually fight that war.


I think I would rather trust my military operations to outside contractors. I'm intrigued by how the US manages to have such a large military, if it's busy paying mercs to fight its wars. Or relies on others to do the donkeywork whilst it plays with the fancy toys.


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