Programming career: Am I too old??

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I will be 28 next month, and I would like to get into a programming career. I’d like to start looking early next year. I have a few questions I want to pose, particularly to any programmers out there.

I have just started my second year of a part-time Masters degree in Computer Science. My first degree was in maths. Some time after that I spent one and a half years as a graduate trainee in the insurance industry, which I absolutely hated. I got sacked from that job. I’m now doing fairly basic admin stuff.

I have no experience in any sort of I.T. job. I’ve read some places that programming is difficult to get into beyond the age of 30. Other places I’ve read programming is a popular career choice for mature entrants!

I am a bit concerned. I’ve come across many aspies on the internet who started teaching themselves programming when they were 12 or so. There must be many people like that out there, both aspie and NT, with a wealth of knowledge they can call upon. Maybe even some of these people have trouble finding work. What hope do I have? (At least I live in a big city I suppose.)

I chose to study for an “academic” qualification, rather than, say, a vocational qualification in one language, because firstly I was worried about focusing on one language and then finding out no one uses it anymore, and secondly because I felt I should know about other aspects of information technology.

I finished my first year only really knowing C++, and a bit about “data structures” (useful for people who work with databases apparently). There was one module about hardware and assembly programming, but I did no work for that. This year I’ll be learning Java, amongst others.

Would a programmer be expected to know a bit about operating systems and databases (which I’m covering this year) etc.?

If I were to register with employment agencies, should I advertise myself according to what languages I know, i.e., “(junior) C++ / Java programmer”?
Or shall I just call myself a programmer when searching for junior positions (willing to learn new languages?!)?

Should I advertise myself according to what industry I want to work in? (How does anyone choose anyway? I can see that games programming would be perhaps the most fun and competitive, but how do people end up working for banks?)

Should a programmer be able to touch type?? (Is that a dumb question?)

By the way, I have almost three years worth of “gaps” on my CV. Maybe that won’t be a huge problem. I came across an aspie on another site who spent six years on the dole after leaving university (also with a maths degree), then got himself a programming qualification and walked into the first job he applied for.

Read this:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html

I'm 48. I learned on punch cards, and now program on a multi-window flat screen machine. I learned on a DEC10 mainframe, and am typing this on a dual boot (Linux and Windows) PC I built last year. While I did some programming out of college, mainly in FORTRAN, I currently program in Awk, Python, and C. Mathematics is my programming language of choice; the machine languages are just a matter of style. I have an applied math degree from a small state college, received in 1980. Today I work for an engineering research company.

At 28, you can do whatever you want. Once there, you need to keep current.

Good luck. Hope this helps!! !! !! !

The idea that IT is inaccessible for young people partly stems from the fact that certain major IT consultancies prefer (by that I mean insist) employees are 100% flexible with regards to working hours and locations. Obviously, as one gets older and is more likely to have commitments outside to work, such demands become unrealistic. Hence, these consultancies are unlikely to hire people over 30 and those that do get in will leave quite quickly when they have had enough of being sent to the other end of the country at a moments notice, sometimes for months at a time. This clearly makes life impossible if you're married, have an active social life (!), own pets or need to be near family.

That's not to say IT isn't for older people, you just have to apply to the right kind of employers.

When I was younger I tended to work in trendy software houses that had high rates of staff turnover, so inevitably employed mostly people in their early 20s. Now I've moved on to in-house IT departments and more old fashioned software houses, it turns out there's a whole load of people in their 40s and 50s still in IT and earning a decent living at jobs they love.

So, basically, at 28 you are far from being too old for IT. But do make sure you take every opportunity to pick up the latest skills and demonstrate them in a commercial environment.

As to your other questions, no you don't need to touch type - you just need to be able to think logically and be able to solve complex problems.

I can't say what kind of programming you may prefer, however I know two people who used to work in game programming and became disillusioned with it and left to do their own thing.
Basically, the teams that work on modern computer games are so huge and specialised into individual roles, it's not quite as much fun as you imagine. If you enjoy programming then the type of company you want to work for is someone who is willing to try out leading edge technology. That tends to be large companies with large budgets who run their own IT development. There's still quite a lot of that but you would be vulnerable to the dreaded outsourcing! Such is life!

Well, I have no social life. I've never in my life felt that I'd ever want to get married, nor have I ever thought I'd be able to find a partner even if I wanted one.
I guess I couldn't really explain this in an interview. Maybe it's a subject for another thread anyway.

I don't want to be a consultant. I'd prefer to just be some guy sitting there writing code.
Do they get sent up and down the country too?
Maybe the word consultant can apply to almost any professional these days. I've always thought "consultancy" required certain people skills that I don't have.

Last edited by Klytus on 21 Oct 2005, 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Cool - I'm sure you'd enjoy the regular single site based programming (which most of it is), I was just trying to explain why there is an image of IT being ageist.

Whether that is specifically a problem for all individuals is obviously quite another matter.

And yes, IT consultancy does tend to require certain people skills, which I have a complete and utter lack of - so I've avoided that side of the trade with some determination!
Plus, I prefer (nay demand) to be based in one location. Travelling around to different sites all the time would leave me super stressed, and I'm sure I'm not unique in this.

I see. Thanks.

What was it they left to do? Are they the sorts of people who put their own software on the net and ask people to send them donations?

Not exactly.

They left to start a web design and hosting company. They've got loads of contacts in the industry so have done quite well out of it.
One of them is good with graphics and layout, the other is more technically proficient. A good team.

First, you will probably not have to put your age on any sort of application or resume. They may ask you at an interview even if it's in a place the laws say they can't, but by that time your foot is already at the door. I wouldn't consider being 28 to be any sort of deterrent to finding a job.

I got into software testing (I don't quite have the patience to write code all day) when I was 25 and was considered young at the time. The fact that I looked 18 may have had something to do with that.

I don't know that the any particular industry is better than another. I would say it has more to do with the structure of the team you'd be working with and what the release cycle is like. I tend to prefer smaller teams and short development cycles because you spend more time jumping from one thing to the next. Others might prefer working on a large team with long release cycles (such as established shrink-wrap software) if they like a lot of structure.

Programming resumes that I've seen usually do include several languages, environments (Windows, Mac, Unix), and development tools although the fact that it's on the resume may just mean they played around with it for a week. I would suggest playing around with a couple. Take a look at job listings and see what languages come up often. If you can, put together some sort of sample of your work - a website, a utility program, etc. This will show them that you're actually capable of creating something that works. Having a degree doesn't guarantee this.

I know that at least in the states, the job market is really hot right now. There's a lot of positions available and not enough people to fill them. If you can't find a programming job you might look into a related position such as IT, quality assurance, release engineer, etc. It's very common for someone to start in one of those positions and move into programming if they show some aptitude.

You might get some strange looks if you can't touch type but they are not likely to watch you type until after you have the job.

Keep in mind that any job will require lots of time spent in meetings, time spent discussing how to structure something, etc. It's unlikely you'll find a position that only involves sitting in a room pumping out code.

Good luck!

Indeed it is. My best friend & business partner is great with graphcs/layout, along with sales and marketing. He's good at thinking of new ideas, designing attractive websites, and getting on the phone and talking to prospective clients. I'm terrible at all those things, but my skills are in taking his layouts and making them into functional websites, along with doing the programming and everything necessary to make his ideas work. We run an online advertising business, and do quite well at it. It's my only job, and makes me plenty of money to pay all the bills and live comfortably.

To answer the original questions..

You're not too old as long as you're willing to learn. A lot of companies like older people because they are considered to have a better work ethic, and they don't have a "I know everything and I'm entitled to $60k+/year" attitude like many recent college grads. The only concern is that older applicants may not have kept up with current technologies. If you can demonstrate that you have, you should do fine. And nobody really cares about your typing skills as long as you can write good code and get it done on time.

First off, you need to figure out what type of programming interests you, and which platform you like. And yes, being proficient with databases and OSes is necessary.

If it's Web development, you'll need to know HTML and JavaScript. If you like Linux, you'll probably want to be proficient with PHP and at least familiar with Perl & C/C++. MySQL is a good database to know, as is PostgreSQL. You should also know how to administer an Apache web server.

For Windows web development, you should be familiar with ASP.NET (which uses various programming languages-- C++ and especially C# are good ones to know), along with classic ASP for working on legacy apps. The database of choice to know would be Microsoft SQL Server, and IIS is the most common Web server.

For most other programming, it really depends on what you're doing and the individual company. Some have embraced Java, others like .NET development (which is usually but not necessarily done with C#). Other fields stick with C/C++. Those are good general-purpose languages to know because they are extensively used, and learning those makes other languages such as C#, PHP, etc. much easier to learn.

And you should start out applying for jobs at smaller businesses. Many larger companies get so many applications that they have to screen out many of them because they simply couldn't interview everyone who applies. If you don't have several years experience and/or various certifications, they probably won't bother. Smaller companies are more willing to interview you and learn about your actual skills.

Good luck!

So do I have you to blame for any of the pop-ups that ruin my internet browsing experience?
Aheh.
But, seriously ... what does that involve? Do companies come to you asking you to design advertising banners for them or what?

Anyway, thanks (one and all) for the advice.

Howcome no one's mentioned UML? I'm supposed to be learning that at university too, but I haven't been keeping up.
Is UML something that only software engineers rather than programmers need to know?

What's the difference between a software engineer and a programmer anyway? I have this idea that software engineers kind of oversee how everything's going to fit together (with their class diagrams and so on), while the programmers actually do the coding.
I really should know this. I need to do some cramming over Christmas!

I think they are the same thing

Software Engineer is more like a job title/role, whereas a programmer is just the general name for a coder. But basically a Software Engineer will go through the whole software project life cycle - concept, design, coding, testing, support etc but might depend on how big the company is, they could have dedicated team for each phase.

As a child I was a computer nut. We had all the cool new toys, a Mac Plus even! I spent a lot of time messing around with computers in HS, programming etc. Off to college- unfortunately the program I was in changed 2 years later- but at the time the courses were in an obscure dialect of FORTRAN, and I wanted to learn HTML and web stuff. This was back in the beginning of the web. Since it was so useless, I switched programs.

Ten years later, I've failed at all jobs I've tried and and trying to scrape together some way of life. Being a guy in a closet with a computer may really be the only way to go.

So I'm back into it, after a loooongg break. The advantage is I get to start right in with the latest stuff and I'm not stuck in the mid 90's graphics intensive web development phase. I've been teaching myself PHP, MYSQL, and CSS. Along with a little Javascript and HTML these (open source, nice!) tools I think are quite sufficient for these days. Of course if you're looking to get hired by someone other languages would be good, but personally I'm not- even sitting in someone else's closet and working for them would likely be a disaster- I just want to write a few websites for someone...

I guess. Heck this computer stuff is the only way I see myself ever being sef-supportive. So... if it's what you want, just keep at it... personally I'm doing it b/c I don't see an option.

Good luck!! (And if you find a company that hires weirdos and closet dwellers let me know!)

I think they're pretty much the same. Titles vary by company - some companies might use one, some the other, some might use both for different positions. I've also seen the term "software architect" meaning the person who decides what technologies are to be used, how the code is structured, basically guiding other programmers.

I havent seen the term 'Programmer' used for a job title in a long time here in UK. Mostly use Software Engineer or Developer.

UML provides an approach to object-oriented analysis, design and implementation, and although a programmer will not need to be proficient in all aspects of the modelling process, it’s a good skill to be able to put on your CV. I’m not sure how many companies use the entire UML cycle, however.
As for the age issue, a few years ago there was a marked bias against older applicants for IT jobs; it was felt that IT staff who were proficient in older technologies would not be able to retrain to newer languages and methodologies. There are certain generic programming skills, and there is no reason why a good COBOL programmer cannot be a good Java programmer. However, companies wanted to hire people in their teens and early twenties. Of course, such employees required lower salaries, and had not built up pension rights. After the dot-com bubble burst, there may have been some realisation that looking the part does not infer an ability to do the job. Twenty-eight is not old by any means. You have things in your favour;

You’ve got business experience of an industry (insurance).
You are demonstrating a commitment to a career change by pursuing a part-time qualification.

Both of the above should look good to any prospective employer. You may find it useful to look at IT jobs in the insurance industry, as a start. Employers want someone to start straight away, and do not want to train people any more than is necessary. Some may be flexible and hire you on a lower rate initially.
As for consultancies, they may be looking for a particular profile of person to fit their companies. Such companies are more about sales than IT development; their focus is to generate and maintain a positive revenue stream from their clients, and the consultants are trained to support that focus. Most of them are just sales people.
One thing to be aware of is that programming is now thought of as a commodity skill. Companies think that sending the programming function off-shore will save them money. There is some reversal in this trend at the moment, although it’s difficult to guess what’s going to happen in the longer term.
Best of luck!