Child sees no cause and effect.

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New parent to Asperger's. My 11yo boy's doctor mentioned Asperger's a few months ago. A school psychologist said he probably had it too.

I was in denial. But after 2 school suspensions and repeated sending to the office for discipline, something had to be done. I took him to be evaluated.

The person doing the evaluating nodded at virtually every "symptom" I described. From not turning in homework that he's done, to not being able to see cause and effect in his actions. He's a smart kid, great reader, but can't grasp simple concepts like spitting on other student's food will get him in trouble. Even if he does it as a joke.

My wife and I are exhausted because almost daily it's a new blowup we have to deal with. But having a label to put on what's wrong seems like it might be helpful. She couldn't do the official diagnosis because she's not a doc. just a screener. But in her opinion, it was a "slam dunk" Asperger's and recommended us for an thorough eval.

Anyway, I'm just getting started with this. Thought I'd post my experience.

welcome to WP. sorry I cant really help you since I'm only 14 thought I'd say HI! though

If your sons gets the diagonsis at least the school knows why and might be able to handle the situation a lot better, or in a different approach.

Good luck with everything.

Having a name for it will help both of you. I didn't have a name for it until I was 28, and believe me, I wish I would have known sooner. Best wishes and welcome.

"cause and effect" - a huge issue at our house!

For instance, I recently learned that our son has been leaving all his schoolwork and papers in his cubby at school, and not bringing them home. (I found out because his teachers discovered this and told me.) So I told him to please bring everything home, not just his homework papers.

He finally brought home a huge stack of papers today (though he "forgot" for the third day in a row to bring home his HOMEWORK) and gave them to me. I looked through them, and found over half a dozen "MATH AWARD!!" certificates from back in January and February, that he'd not only NOT brought home, but never even told us about.

I said, "Look - I understand why you might not want to bring home schoolwork you got a bad grade on, or with 'LATE' written on it. I get that. You don't want to get in trouble. Okay. What I DON'T understand is why you wouldn't bring home AWESOME STUFF you did?!"

He just looked sad and confused and said he didn't think it was important. I asked him, "Important to WHOM?" and he got even more flustered and couldn't answer me. I said his dad and I would be thrilled to see him bringing home something from school besides poor behavior reports and notes from his teacher. And yes, he usually does do his homework, but about half the time, he "forgets" to turn it in.

I tried explaining to him about "positive attention" and "negative attention," and why the former is preferable to the latter.

I still don't think he understood me. He's nine.

Even though I know I'm on the spectrum myself, I still am completely baffled as to what motivates my son sometimes, how his mind works, how his decision-making apparatus works and sorts things out. I just can't think of a single reason why a child would NOT mention or bring home school certificates for being awesome at something (unless it was a household that didn't appreciate education - which this is most definitely NOT).

I don't want to be frustrated with him or angry at him. It makes me sad to see him looking frustrated and sad. But he just stands there and looks like he's about to explode, but swears he just can't explain, he doesn't know, he doesn't know.

What choice do I have but to believe him, that he really doesn't know?

But I feel no closer to understanding him.

Thanks for the warm welcomes and replies

Like sinagua, my wife and I have been pulling our hair out trying to understand him. I am extremely logical (programmer and network admin) I could possibly have it myself I guess. I am extremely attuned to cause and effect. It's completely maddening to see him shoot himself in the foot on Monday, cry about it on Tuesday, then do the same exact thing on Wednesday. Then start the process all over again the following week.

But we think about how when we were kids we wouldn't dare get sent to the office, let alone get suspended. So understanding his thoughts are something I'd like to do.

I have learned over the past 2 weeks to ask him specific thought related questions like. "Ok, you were playing tag and then you saw Jenny. What did you think when you saw Jenny?" He then details the thought process that led up to him tagging her on the rear - thus securing him another day in the office.

It brings me closer to understanding, but once I understand, then what? Does it do any good?

It's a past thing, and he's already moved forward. My son is the same way. "He would NEVER think to put his homework in his folder to bring home. He has a 1:1 aide and I'm sure he's assisted with these organizational issues. He would leave the house with special interest in hand, shoes off and no back pack if I didn't remind him and find it all for him.

As a matter of fact, I don't see this as a cause and effect issue but more of theory of mind issue--my son does not care to please me with 100's and certificates. He does not seek external rewards or praise and he doesn't see that I might be interested in how he performs or what he's done in school. He has a fixed mind and it's always fixed on something--not something he earned from school unless it's candy he had to wait to eat. He has trouble returning to past things. I do think that school is difficult and he sets his mind to it. When he walks out those doors, he frees his mind from it. It's his time.

equinn

Hi Blarneystone, welcome to WP.

Our sons also have little concept of cause and effect. And you summed it up nicely...

And we are also new at this, but as we are beginning to understand why they behave the way they do in different situations, it is helping a great deal. It helps us and others to see them in a more positive light (they aren't just being "bad"), and when we can figure out what is triggering some of the issues we can make changes to the schedule/environment etc., or do more specific teaching about what they need to do differently, that has a better chance of being understood by them if we are on the same wavelength.

And my sons also never share their accomplishments. I find the 10/10 spelling test scrumpled up in the bottom of his backpack, just the same as the 3/10 one.

Oh yes, story of our lives! It is MADDENING. I feel badly for him, because I know he's frustrated and I believe he'd communicate his thoughts/feelings if he could find the words, but usually he can't/doesn't, and then it gets hard.

I do think it would help me to understand what he's thinking sometimes, even if I don't agree with what he's thinking. Even if it sounds "silly," it's still SOMETHING, something I can work with. If he really doesn't care about pleasing us with certificates or good grades, okay - I may not "get" that, but at least it's an ETHOS. (sorry, "Big Lebowski" reference, I'm a bit of a fan)

ANYTHING would be preferable to tears and "I DON'T KNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWW!! !! !"

Very interesting. It's good to hear other people's kids who do this, too. It's completely mystified us. The stack of papers he brought home today ran the whole gamut - some incomplete or "LATE", some with lots of mistakes, some with just a few mistakes, and several lengthy multiplication tests with "100%! !" on them, plus the certificates - as though one was no more "important" than any other. I'm not saying his perception isn't valid! It's just one I cannot relate to in any way.

I have 3 sons - 2 diagnosed with Asperger's.

I'd say your son becomes very confused in social situations. He probably doesn't understand facial expressions, tone of voice, sarcasm etc.

With social confusion, comes anxiety .... this can lead to lashing out.

My oldest son becomes very anxious with his social confusion.

He goes to an autism/asperger's clinic fortnightly (he's been going for 1 year now). He's learning about facial expression, tone of voice, non-literal language (sarcasm, metaphors, idioms of speech etc).

We use a lot of flow charts/diagrams to help him understand what happens. We have 4 kids who live next door. Most of the time our sons play well with them.

Every couple of weeks my oldest son has at least 1 meltdown when playing with the neighbours (luckily the neighbours adore my boys and are very forgiving of the meltdowns).

We well then sit down to try to work out what happened. What better choices he could have made.

I recommend you read Tony Attwood's book. 'The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome'
http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/publications2.html

Helen

I always did well on my spelling tests. 19 out of 20 or 20 out of 20 for years straight without study. The keener/teachers pet girls hated me for it and I suspect they accused me of cheating. But I dont think to this day my parents knew how well I did at it. It never occurred to me to tell them.

If you want to grasp how it is, imagine running home to tell mom "I went to the bathroom today!" or "Guess what mom! Today, at noon, I ate lunch! Isnt that grand?" Its all just a mundane event.

Maybe it was pizza for lunch? Stretch out the time frame for dramatic effect. "I had pizza for lunch a month ago! How lucky, huh?". To some aspies, a month ago is the same as 5 hours ago. Its all in the past. Why get excited over that? Would you?

Welcome!

For us, having a label for some of the things going on with our son was like being handed a key. I could read up on it, talk to other parents, and come to understand what was really going on. That understanding is EVERYTHING, in my view.

Simple example: many behavior problems are linked to sensory issues. It does zero, zero good to try to solve this by issuing consequences, because once an Apsie child is in sensory overload he is no longer able to control his actions. Instead, you have to locate the triggers, and teach the child to avoid them. My son's eyes and demeanor all change when he is in sensory overload. I can SEE it. I need to help him separate from the situation and get him back in control of himself.

Another example: the more out of control Aspie kids feel, the more rules they construct for the world around them. Trying to conform the world to a rigid set of rules is a coping mechanism. So what do you do when your child starts trying to impose unreasonable structure and expectations on everything around him? Find out where the stress is. What is "out of control" that is bothering him, and causing to feel an increased need to control others.

And the label can explain things to the child. My son can't tie his shoes. But, guess what? I've discovered from forums like this that problems with shoe tying are perfectly normal for an Aspie child his age. He LOVES that. He isn't frustrated anymore. He knows he is "normal" maybe not like kids around him, but like other kids like him.

As for cause and effect ... lol, that can be interesting. The thing is, the child needs to understand all the little steps and connections, and I think many Aspie kids will only absorb the ones they have directly experienced, and that make logical sense to them. My son won't do something because it's a rule. That simply isn't good enough. He'll try to change the rule if it doesn't make sense. Or keep pushing against it, as if the more logical result will happen some day because, well, it's the logical result. If a rule doesn't make sense to him, it can't exist. To deal with it, for my son at least, I have to get him to understand the rule and it's place in making HIS life better. He has to see the connection between the rule and a specific goal of his - and not just a goal of avoiding getting into trouble. Some of these things he simply has to learn for himself. A spelling lesson comes to mind. He used to refuse to do his spelling homework because he could see no connection between the workbook pages and the skills he would need to get a good grade on the test. He would do the work to avoid penalty, but that was it. So one week he had a "get out of homework" pass the teacher had sold at an in-class auction. He used that to exempt his spelling sheets. And failed that week's spelling test miserably. Then a light bulb went off, "aw, just writing those words helps me learn how they are spelled." It didn't end all the issues about the homework, but it did cut out 80% of them. He could now see the path from action A to result B. Almost EVERYTHING has been like that with him - he has to learn things the hard way, through tested scientific like experiments.

I do think the label will help you a lot. It may not need to be official. Read, read and read, tune into your child more fully than ever, talk with the teachers, and discover how the world needs to be shaped to meet your son's needs. Then you work to give him more of that world, to the extent practical. The more the world is shaped in the way he needs it to be, the more you will find him wiling and able to reach out back, and give the world what it needs from him.

I think our kids are amazing. They have the most fascinating minds and abilities. You just need to clear the path so those can shine.

Great post, DW_a_mom - that was really helpful to me. Lots of good ideas and suggestions. I'm going to reread your comments again - maybe paste them into my journal.

Shoe tying has been a major issue. I feel badly for making him feel badly about it. I just could not understand why he felt no motivation whatsoever to learn how. I taught myself in an afternoon when I was three. He is nine, and still can't do it. If he finally learns, he only does it once, then never practices or does it again for months until the next time he HAS to, at which point he's forgotten all over again, and gets frustrated all over again, and then we have a meltdown (both him and me).

I really have to get my head around the fact that as "different" as I always felt growing up, my son is even moreso, and what makes "sense" to me very often has no correlation to what makes "sense" to him. I hope we can learn to communicate more effectively with one another, as he gets older, and I learn more.

Last edited by sinagua on 09 May 2008, 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Really excellent example. Thanks for sharing it!

I've enjoyed reading this series of posts. It isn't something I've given a lot of thought to, because I regularly clear out my son's backpack and the school doesn't rely on him to tell us important stuff, but I see it being a problem.

Perhaps part of it is from a sense that it's all just unimportant stuff. I know it's that way with my son. School work is a means to an end, not an end. It's just what they make him do to either learn the skills, or show he has acquired the skills. Half the stuff he thinks is plain nuts or useless (we get lots of rants about that). Other parts he enjoys. But it's all a means to an end: what he takes pride in and enjoys is holding the knowledge. Nothing more, nothing less. Only when the schoolwork results in a creation he thinks is really cool, like the 3D buildings he is working on today, will he have any desire to share it. The rest just comes out in conversation: he loves sharing science and history facts. When you think about it, he has it right for the long run. When he's 30 no one is going to remember the little awards and test scores. And most of us also discard all the learning that ends up having no bearing on our lives. The important thing is how useful the learning is, and how the information helps in daily life, or simply makes things interesting. THAT excites my son. NOT the routine of producing work for school.

He does take pride in his annual testing, however. Perhaps because that has been given such great weight by the school, or perhaps it is a more true test of what information you have retained for the long term. For that, he is eager to do well, and to know he did well.