Caught in the crossfire...

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Hadn't heard of him.

So, where do I stand? I don't have any particular denomination I support in particular. I don't try to "shove religion down peoples' throats", but I do have little patience with people who go out of their way to be offensive and whatnot. If you throw me in the batch of "extreme" Christians, well, I don't care - that's what I want to be anyway.

Yeah, I think there are some that believe that evolution takes God away, or that denies God's existence, few christians and few atheists may believe that, I am of the opinion that scientific theories of the origin of life and the origin of the universe, don't either confirm or deny God, in the scientific sense.

slowmutant, I am wondering something, I thought that in Catholicism, you didn't have to accept Jesus as your Saviour and stuff, to enter to heaven, I thought that was something from evangelical doctrine, or is it different within catholic denominations? I had the idea that, with just living a good moral life and practically being a good citizen and good person, was enough for it, well, that's what I heard. On the other hand, I heard one catholic lady saying once that those who didn't believe and accept Virgin Mary wouldn't go to heaven.

Actually, the divinity of Christ is a basic article of faith. If you don't believe that Jesus was the resurrected Son of God, you can't call yourself a Christian of any denomination.

Similarly, Islam absolutely requires that its adherents profess belief in Muhammhad as the prophet of God. If you don't believe thus, you can't call yourself a Muslim.

How about the purgatory, isn't is suppose to purify souls in order to be saved? I mean that is what I get from Catholic belief, that when someone dies, family members and friends pray for his salvation.

It's not necessarily about calling yourself a christian or a muslim (also, on a side note, the term "christian" is a common noun referring to a person of that faith, while "Christian" refers to the actual faith itself, such that it would be either "I am a christian" or "I am of the Christian Faith"), it's about whether you get to enter the Kingdom of Heaven or not. There are many people that, other than the fact that they haven't professed faith in Jesus (or Muhammad, as the case may be), still live by the teachings set down. Are these people that live the life that God wanted them to live just as damned as a devil worshipper would be? I don't think so...

Last edited by ToadOfSteel on 19 Aug 2008, 1:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

well if you wanna go extreme, expect a lot of people not to like you

Can I just say, I wish I'd encountered more Christians with that kind of humility? I've encountered some who not only are willing to openly make that judgement - in the negative direction - but who will happily do it in front of the relatives at funerals.

I'd like to be countered among the non-extremists, if I may. I'm personally all for: believe what you wish, but don't go harming others, or spreading misinformation about them, in the name of your belief.

And if you are going to say anything about anyone else's beliefs, please have the courtesy to actually find out about that belief from the people concerned - not make up your own stories about what you think they believe. (That one bugs me because I've encountered it so often. Again, it's arrogance.)

People who do that are obviously going to hell. [/kidding]


Ugh. Especially when someone tries to debate me and makes completely ridiculous assumptions about my beliefs. If you're unsure, is it really that hard to ask someone to clarify their beliefs? Straw man arguments annoy me far more than any ad hominem attack.

I'm Lutheran, therefore very liberal and generally quite about my faith. (Confucius say: stereotype are awesome) I've argued over Christianity here before, but that's because fundies, AS or not, can't seem to argue logic. Seriously. Someone here please prove me wrong. Then again, I never argued anything ridiculous.

it had its purpose but i think we're beyond the point of needing it other than creating the need for it with each successive generation. society needs to ween off the teat of imagined constructs and get to reality before we blow ourselves up in arrogance of the assuredness of an afterlife...a nuclear bomb is not something that should be held by anyone who thinks there's an afterlife.

Religion works to the detriment of creativity, innovation, and invention. It stifles the quest for knowledge and replaces it with banal myths of divine planning and creation. It limits enjoyment and promotes suffering. Its dogmatic approach to social interaction places barriers between peoples and creates class distinctions that are based on intangible ideologies. It so narrowly defines 'righteousness' that even the slightest transgression condemns a person to a lifetime of guilt and persecution, and determines that those who suffer greatly somehow 'asked for it' by living an unrighteous and sin-filled life, thus forcing those who sin to hide their sins in a dark closet, and those who have been sinned against to conceal their conditions lest they be condemned as well. Religion subverts secular authority with baseless claims to higher callings, demands unquestioning obedience from its followers, and denies any wrong-doing as long as the Name is invoked. Religion is the political expression of faith in immaterial things, and is thus the last refuge of those that lack enfranchisement within secular governments. Religion is not based on reason, therefore its rank-and-file is among the most unreasonable of peoples ever brought together under one idea - the belief in the supernatural. Religion is instead based on 'impressions,' 'feelings,' and 'spirituality' - all words that are so widely defined as to become meaningless in any rational context.

But, going to worship services is a great way to meet women!

Before I go on about Fnord's post, I will make one concession: An organized body with too much power will abuse it, regardless of whether it is claims to be Christian or not, although even this was part of the teachings of Jesus, who often chastised those with too much power and their propensity to use it improperly. This also applies to the Crusades, which were called by men. It wasn't like God himself shouted down from Heaven and said "Go attack this guy". More likely, through passages such as "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword" and "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore", God would probably have disapproved of many of the actions taken by certain groups claiming to act in God's name. The complaints you mention concerning "religion" seem to be more directed as power structures that are established by men, not God, and I would see more merit in your arguments if these power structures are what you are talking about...

Anyway, here goes:

Tell that to any classical composer that has written a Requiem. While you're at it, tell Dante Alighieri as well...


Tell that to Newton or Galileo. (Galileo himself was a Roman Catholic despite the Catholic Church's suppression of his writings, but see the concession above.)


In what way? Most suffering I encounter in my life has nothing to do with my faith, and the faith I have is what keeps me going through suffering.


All humanity is on the same level in the eyes of God. The class distinctions you mention are a construct of man and not of God.


Completely untrue. Most mainstream Christian theologies tend to focus on forgiveness of sins. People that confess their sins toward God are forgiven, although confession to a clergymember is either highly encouraged or in some cases (as in the Roman Catholic Church) required. That was the whole point of Jesus's death in the scriptures. The system works similarly to Alcoholics Anonymus: admitting that you, a member of the fallible human race, are in fact, a sinner, is the first step towards salvation...


As far as I know, most mainstream denominations today, if they make "higher callings", it's for stuff like sending people to help the poor, etc. There's a reason many soup kitchens often are related to a church or other religious body. While these types of callings are organized by men (similar to the crusades example I laid out earlier), these actions are more in line with the teachings of God, and therefore God looks more in favor upon such endeavors.


Also untrue. I would not consider myself "blindly obedient" to the church I worship at. Only extreme fringe groups operate in this manner.


That is a failing of human nature, not just of religion. People are too eager to use God's name to get out of trouble from committing so many atrocities... How would you feel if every atrocity ever committed was blamed on you?


I don't see how those two statements are connected... Also, if the latter statement were true, every single passport holder would be an atheist...


Yes, I've obviously been very unreasonable by going on a point-by-point rebuttal without blabbering on like some lunatic...


That statement can be construed as rendering three sciences, psychology, anthopology, and sociology, just as meaningless.


Again wrong. If it was, I would have found a girlfriend by now...


PS: While I debate your arguments, I hold nothing against you personally. As I've said in previous posts, it is not man's place to judge man, so I'm not judging you either. Unless your name appears on the news as someone who went on a mass killing spree, you're still a good person in my book, regardless of what you believe...

I really hope this thread does not turn into a theological war ground (Fnord, AG behave). I have been enjoying learning about some of your beliefs. From what you have said, to use a cooking anology God put all the ingredients together and sort of baked the earth like a cake ? Very simplisitic analogy I know but am I on the right track?

My personal beliefs concerning the universe are actually somewhat Newtonian in nature (if you're interested, look up some of the religious views of Sir Isaac Newton... you might be surprised). Basically, God created the universe and, with it, the Laws of Physics which govern it, which then took over. Yes, it leans in the direction of Deism, but it differs from Deism in that God is still with humanity. The Laws of physics were implemented to give humanity some sense of order amidst the chaos, which would allow humans (and indeed, all life) to function reliably.

I'd go further into detail but that would mean getting into Predestination, which is a very touchy subject (probably even more touchy among theologians than homosexuality and abortion combined), so i'll cut it short here...

Ahhhh Predestination could be a fun thread