Making Sense of What Looks Like Illogicality/Inefficiency

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ouinon
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30 Aug 2008, 1:44 pm

I don't know if it's my Aspergerishness, probably, but I am frequently bewildered by, and critical of, what looks to me like persistent and widespread inefficiency in the organisation of human society; systems which don't seem to make any sense at all, others which seem unnecessarily complicated, and what feels generally like a permanent lack of logic or sense in so many areas.

Like transport, and shops, and so many other things.

I suddenly remembered the isolated island on which the inhabitants, never having invented the means to successfully leave their island, have solved the problem of population pressure in a very finite space by inventing, probably/perhaps without even realising why, a series of labyrinthine rules and regulations for traversing their small island so that what could be a simple stroll of a few minutes involves complex negotiations and exchanges with all the people over whose territory/gardens/plots of land you want to pass, and if not complied with lead to violence/censure/reprisals or increasing exclusion from society (including marriage etc).

Since 1500 most humans in the west have known that we live on a globe, and also that there is no way off it, ( yet ). As the world "shrinks" perhaps humans are instinctively, in the same way as those island villagers, creating compensatory complications which restrict some/many daily activities/functions, so that we don't feel too much the pressure of limited space around us.

And what to me have seemed so often like hopelessly illogical, inefficient rules, systems, etc, may not only be an unconscious human reaction to being stranded in one place unable to leave, which protects us from being too conscious of it, but also one that certain unicellular organisms used to get out of that overcrowded marshy or rocky puddle; creating increasingly complex rules of association, ( involving increasing restrictions of some functions for each cell) , before moving out as multicellular organisms.

Suddenly some ( at least ) of the "unbelievably" "stupid" time-and-energy-wasting systems, "incredibly" "stupid" illogical complications of modern life, look a bit different to me; they actually make sense, and population-control measures look like a retrograde proposition. Pressure on us to live closer and closer together could be a factor which provokes the ( next ) singularity :wink: . I just like how it makes sense out of something that has bugged me so much. :D

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ouinon
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31 Aug 2008, 1:41 pm

I was wondering how many things that have bugged aspies through history, ( and provoked some of the more active/powerful/determined amongst them into finding "simpler", more "efficient", more "logical" ways of doing things) , actually did make a great deal of sense, were purposeful, and important, checks and balances, with deep logic to them. But what these aspies, ( like most aspies, always needing to understand in order to accept, cooperate with), did not realise was that they had not understood the underlying logic.

And whether it is a bit like yin and yang, the more that things/processes are invented which make the world "smaller", make communication and travel apparently easier, simpler, faster, etc, the more other processes and systems evolve ( in reaction, compensation) which slow things down again, obstruct and complicate life, make the world "bigger".

?



chever
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31 Aug 2008, 4:23 pm

Occam's Razor suggests that you simply have both feet in a crock of shit and are trying to rationalize the smell.


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Keith
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31 Aug 2008, 4:53 pm

Makes you wonder what type of people invented stuff that changed the world, if they were NT or autistic in some way



ouinon
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01 Sep 2008, 1:56 am

chever wrote:
Occam's Razor suggests that you simply have both feet in a crock of shit and are trying to rationalize the smell.

I don't think that finding vast amounts of the world/civilisation almost insupportably illogical/inefficient/stupid is necessarily the simplest position/perspective ( Occam) . :wink:

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prometheuspann
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01 Sep 2008, 2:06 am

Quote:
Occam's Razor suggests that you simply have both feet in a crock of s**t and are trying to rationalize the smell.


Your occams razor seems to be a blunt instrument you pulled out of your own crock of s**t.

Its good to see that you are an equal opportunity troll.

The problem with this behvaior is that its against the rules, its stupid, its assinine, it adds nothing to the conversation,
and it proves that you are an asshat, spewing crocks of s**t you are projecting from out of your own id, so that you can beat up on people so that you can feel good about your own pathetic self.

It won't ever work. You can never beat up on enough people to make yourself any bigger than a two inch tall imp,
and in the process, all you are doing the whole time is impersonating the turd which you drop into every bucket- thereby making it a crock of shit- because its got you in it.

Grow up and get a life, ret*d.


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prometheuspann
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01 Sep 2008, 2:09 am

Quote:
I don't know if it's my Aspergerishness, probably, but I am frequently bewildered by, and critical of, what looks to me like persistent and widespread inefficiency in the organisation of human society; systems which don't seem to make any sense at all, others which seem unnecessarily complicated, and what feels generally like a permanent lack of logic or sense in so many areas.


I agree, its a mad world.

Quote:
Like transport, and shops, and so many other things.

I suddenly remembered the isolated island on which the inhabitants, never having invented the means to successfully leave their island, have solved the problem of population pressure in a very finite space by inventing, probably/perhaps without even realising why, a series of labyrinthine rules and regulations for traversing their small island so that what could be a simple stroll of a few minutes involves complex negotiations and exchanges with all the people over whose territory/gardens/plots of land you want to pass, and if not complied with lead to violence/censure/reprisals or increasing exclusion from society (including marriage etc).


Great metaphor.



Quote:
And what to me have seemed so often like hopelessly illogical, inefficient rules, systems, etc, may not only be an unconscious human reaction to being stranded in one place unable to leave, which protects us from being too conscious of it, but also one that certain unicellular organisms used to get out of that overcrowded marshy or rocky puddle; creating increasingly complex rules of association, ( involving increasing restrictions of some functions for each cell) , before moving out as multicellular organisms.

Suddenly some ( at least ) of the "unbelievably" "stupid" time-and-energy-wasting systems, "incredibly" "stupid" illogical complications of modern life, look a bit different to me; they actually make sense, and population-control measures look like a retrograde proposition. Pressure on us to live closer and closer together could be a factor which provokes the ( next ) singularity :wink: . I just like how it makes sense out of something that has bugged me so much. :D


Sure, it all makes sense from the point of view of social evolution. Its still insane, and, thus, we still have millions of minders and trolls running around the internet doing their best to keep everybody as stupid and as insane as they are.


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chever
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01 Sep 2008, 2:12 am

ouinon wrote:
chever wrote:
Occam's Razor suggests that you simply have both feet in a crock of shit and are trying to rationalize the smell.

I don't think that finding vast amounts of the world/civilisation almost insupportably illogical/inefficient/stupid is necessarily the simplest position/perspective ( Occam) . :wink:


Really? Consider gambling for instance. People know that casinos turn a profit (therefore expected value of any game is loss), but they're popular anyway.

prometheuspann wrote:
The problem with this behvaior is that its against the rules, its stupid, its assinine, it adds nothing to the conversation,
and it proves that you are an asshat, spewing crocks of sh** you are projecting from out of your own id, so that you can beat up on people so that you can feel good about your own pathetic self.


Help! Help! I'm being browbeaten by Compost!

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prometheuspann wrote:
Grow up and get a life, ret*d.


...said the high school dropout.

Yeah I'm not taking your advice anytime soon; I wouldn't want to end up like you.


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prometheuspann
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01 Sep 2008, 2:16 am

your self portrait is simply delightful and so accurate!
:shrug:


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chever
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01 Sep 2008, 2:19 am

prometheuspann wrote:
your self portrait is simply delightful and so accurate!
:shrug:


"I am rubber and you are glue" is the best retort that the man who claims to have the equivalent of a doctorate degree in multiple fields can come up with


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ouinon
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01 Sep 2008, 4:39 am

prometheuspann wrote:
Quote:
I remembered the isolated island on which the inhabitants have solved the problem of finite space by inventing a series of labyrinthine rules and regulations for traversing their small island so that what could be a simple stroll of a few minutes involves complex negotiations and exchanges with all the people over whose territory/gardens/plots of land you want to pass, and if not complied with lead to violence/censure/reprisals or increasing exclusion from society (including marriage etc).
Great metaphor.

Thank you. :)
prometheuspann wrote:
Quote:
What seem so often like hopelessly illogical, inefficient rules, systems, etc, may be an unconscious human reaction to being stranded in one place unable to leave, which protects us from being too conscious of it. Suddenly some ( at least ) of the "unbelievably" "stupid" time-and-energy-wasting systems, "incredibly" "stupid" illogical complications of modern life, look a bit different to me; they actually make sense. :D
Sure, it all makes sense from the point of view of social evolution. Its still insane.

That is what I have tended to think, when I haven't been labelling it stupid, illogical etc. But what if it isn't?

What if in fact in fact many/most of those systems which seem so stupid make a lot of sense, given all the various factors? What looks like a mad mess may actually be a most efficient solution, however odd that may seem, ( I don't mean those things, systems or actions, which are cruel or injust, just those which seem "stupid"/"wasteful"/"unnecessarily" complicated, like the tail feathers on a peacock ).

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chever
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01 Sep 2008, 10:11 am

ouinon wrote:
What if in fact in fact many/most of those systems which seem so stupid make a lot of sense, given all the various factors? What looks like a mad mess may actually be a most efficient solution, however odd that may seem


If that were true, operations research would not need to exist

/thread


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ouinon
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01 Sep 2008, 10:58 am

chever wrote:
ouinon wrote:
What if in fact in fact many/most of those systems which seem so stupid make a lot of sense, given all the various factors? What looks like a mad mess may actually be a most efficient solution, however odd that may seem
If that were true, operations research would not need to exist.

That does not follow.

Such research exists, but not perhaps, nor necessarily, because it results in more efficient systems on a global scale. Simplifying some systems, I am thinking, may inevitably cause others to complicate.

Operations research exists perhaps more to satisfy a human need, for example a sense of control and of piloting a boat rather than riding a wave.

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chever
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01 Sep 2008, 11:06 am

ouinon wrote:
Such research exists, but not perhaps, nor necessarily, because it results in more efficient systems on a global scale. Simplifying some systems, I am thinking, may inevitably cause others to complicate.


No.

Unless gut instinct can compete with linear programming and shortest-path algorithms and the like.

(It can't.)

OR methods were first used in World War II, contributing to the Allied victory, and have shown themselves to be the most effective ever since then. Otherwise we wouldn't use them more than sixty years later.

ouinon wrote:
Operations research exists perhaps more to satisfy a human need, for example a sense of control and of piloting a boat rather than riding a wave.
.


It exists because intuition is inadequate.


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ouinon
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01 Sep 2008, 11:19 am

chever wrote:
OR methods were first used in World War II, contributing to the Allied victory, and have shown themselves to be the most effective ever since then. Otherwise we wouldn't use them more than sixty years later.

I do not doubt the effectiveness of OR for, and on, one-off, discrete, localised, targeted, systems, actions or events.

My point is that when such an approach is used on/in one field of human affairs, in order to simplify it, streamline it, improve efficiency, speed a process up, etc, some other area of human life might well be experiencing an equal and opposite reaction, ( obstruction, complication, increased wastefulness, etc ), which "balances" things up again.

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chever
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01 Sep 2008, 11:27 am

ouinon wrote:
My point is that when such an approach is used on/in one field of human affairs, in order to simplify it, streamline it, improve efficiency, speed a process up, etc, some other area of human life might well be experiencing an equal and opposite reaction, ( obstruction, complication, increased wastefulness, etc ), which "balances" things up again.


Well the burden of proof is on you to support that claim


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