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What god(s) do you think most probable to exist?
Personal, separate from the universe, singular 20%  20%  [ 5 ]
Impersonal, separate from the universe, singular 12%  12%  [ 3 ]
Personal, same as the universe, singular 8%  8%  [ 2 ]
Impersonal, same as the universe, singular 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Personal, separate from the universe, multiple 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Impersonal, separate from the universe, multiple 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Gods are impossible 20%  20%  [ 5 ]
I don't know what category you fall in, AG, but you are god 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Uncertain 16%  16%  [ 4 ]
Other 8%  8%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 25

Awesomelyglorious
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07 Sep 2008, 9:54 pm

Ok, this thread is not presupposing that such an entity exists, only bringing up questions about how such a being would be if it did exist. This is an odd question in and of itself, perhaps I am feeling particularly theological this eve or just plain odd...(I have been arguing theology with some friends of mine recently and reading some books on philosophy of religion). Also, I might be somewhat inspired by a comment made by the bravely dying MissPickwickian on another thread I made.

I will define the terms and let you go at it:

god- A being with abilities beyond that which we usually ascribe to the natural world and immortal

Personal- The god(s) in question is concerned with individual humans or groups of humans and thus is anthropocentric

Impersonal- The god(s) in question is not concerned with individual humans or groups of humans but still may act as a creator or perhaps be indifferent to human existence

Same as the universe- This deity is a part of the universe, and thus includes the actions and consciousnesses of all individuals in the universe.

Separate from the universe- This deity is a separate being, and rather than including all beings rather acts upon or towards them.

Singular- There is one god, and possible lesser entities perhaps for or against this god. This god has a high level of control over the universe as there is little to contest the god.

Multiple- There are multiple gods, and these gods can conflict with each other or engage each other diplomatically. This means that these gods do not have much individual control and thus are checked by the power of other gods.

Issues that might be looked at:

-Human experience/consciousness, does it have spiritual meaning or not
-The nature of morality in relationship to god, what god(s) are most consistent with morality(or perhaps it's nonexistence) as you see/understand it
-Random apologetic arguments
-The relationship of god(s) to ideal things or perfection
-How you think god(s) would act towards a world
-What theological notion feels best

Anyway, so yes, I know that some may consider the question ridiculous, and on some level I am promoting some level of non-reductionist mysticism, but I am curious as to the reasoning of individuals. I also think that this thread could allow for some creative thinking and might even allow for some mental play given the large numbers of agnostics on WP.



greenblue
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07 Sep 2008, 10:31 pm

Well, I think this as interesting.

I voted Uncertain, because this is the position that I actually am, sometimes I shift into possible scenarios, of being one powerful sentient being, personal or impersonal, non-sentient being or force, and everything.

Oh and even AG ;)


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Awesomelyglorious
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07 Sep 2008, 10:39 pm

greenblue wrote:
Oh and even AG ;)

Hah, you cannot be me if you do not know what I am. And I am certain that most do not know what I have done.



chever
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08 Sep 2008, 4:03 am

Impersonal, separate, singular


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Accelerator
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09 Sep 2008, 5:32 pm

This is one definition of god.. that seems to have got left out..

The god inside..

The god revealed to us in the New testament..

That exists in hearts and minds.


Anyway.. this is something.. by William Blake..

On the god inside..

And the devil.. (with a long white beard).

-----

“God isn't up there, you know! Sitting in judgment, as it were, on a cloud with a long white beard, inventing awful rules so people feel guilty all the time, and so on and so on.

That's somebody else, entirely.

God is within.

It's man who is without; Cosmic Man.

Now if you don't understand that, don't worry, you're in good company, besides, you'll get the point eventually; I mean by the time your dead, when your spirit will become so agile that you'll find that you can leap from star to star in a single stride.

Oh there are of course people who would dispute that: mathematicians, philosophers, engineers, like Arch Wright, scientists, like Newton. Isaac, bloody, Newton.

He's a most perfect symbol of that oppressive and roughness spirit, which is the governing force in our society, and an embodiment of that cosmic spirit, who holds our world in direst subjugation, and who with terrible laws oppresses us all, and sticks us down, and makes us know our bloody place.

Many people worship this horrible abomination and call it God; a good god and just one. They're wrong of course, for if this good god were in fact just, as they suppose, the world he created would be just too. The world isn't just. Society isn't just. Far from it!

I'm not usually so emotional, so volatile. I mean people usually get the impression I'm a steady sort of fellow with a mystical turn of mind and an actually discernable hallow. I'm often rather sorry to disappoint them. Of course what such people don't take into account is that our identities are never constant; we're changing all the time from the cradle to the grave.

When people are young they want to overthrow what's gone before, but when they're old they want to confine everything with laws, to bind and snare and trap. Their inner conservatism creates a political conservatism, which in turn creates the iron authoritarism of our present society and the stifling, choking unfairness of it all.

I've personified this force and given it a human form, his name is Urizon. He's the old man with the long white beard I was telling you about before. Who then can destroy him? Is there anyone? Anyone at all?

The question's not rhetorical, for I have also conceived another figure in everlasting opposition to the former, youthful, fiery, sparks flying from his flaming red hair. Ork, the demon of ungovernableness. The spirit of revolution.

I see it as an everlasting struggle between two contradicting spirits; a struggle between the state and those who would destroy the state, which neither side can ever really win.

All right! Look at it this way; imagine a desert, a red sun in a slate grey sky. Two figures locked in combat, their feet kicking up clouds of dust. One of the figures is old, he has a long white beard, and tearing at his throat is a boy, sparks flying from his flaming hair. Sometimes the man has the upper hand, sometimes the boy, but neither can ever triumph over the other...."

William Blake

-

Blake would have probably had a much better opinion of Newton.. if he had known of Newton's secret interest in alchemy.. and how he worked at trying to find hidden codes in the bible.


-



NeantHumain
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09 Sep 2008, 6:25 pm

I think of the gods and goddesses as often intimately involved in the lives of human beings, often petty, and prone to play pranks against each other. I think the historical narrative will make more sense if historians tried to deduce what Zeus, Athena, Poseidon, and the rest were up to.



chever
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09 Sep 2008, 11:12 pm

Accelerator wrote:
Oh there are of course people who would dispute that: mathematicians, philosophers, engineers, like Arch Wright, scientists, like Newton. Isaac, bloody, Newton.


Yeah, Isaac Newton

What has he ever done for us?

Accelerator wrote:
Blake would have probably had a much better opinion of Newton.. if he had known of Newton's secret interest in alchemy.. and how he worked at trying to find hidden codes in the bible.


Newton's alchemical experiments actually weren't entirely bullshit and so would have disappointed Blake

There are actually programs that find 'Bible codes' but they can be used to create as much garbage as truth, and more

Good luck with that transmutation anyway...


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Awesomelyglorious
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10 Sep 2008, 12:36 am

Accelerator wrote:
This is one definition of god.. that seems to have got left out..

The god inside..

The god revealed to us in the New testament..

That exists in hearts and minds.

Well, the issue is that I wanted to ignore a solipsist God. Either God is all of reality, or external to some of reality, despite how much he may personally relate to members of that reality, even being present on some level inside of them, he cannot just be inside an individual person, and still can function through a certain divide.

I think that the Christian deity is usually considered personal, separate from the universe, and singular.



BallisticMystic
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10 Sep 2008, 9:00 am

When you talk to God... who are you talking to?

I mean in your head, that's where all dialogue really takes place.

We've been conditioned to think we're talking to something that is so external to ourselves that it can't even be seen or defined. If that is the case, then how is it we can pray within to communicate with something that is without?

All I'm saying is don't be fooled by the illusion, look at the bare mechanics of what is going on and put 2 and 2 together.

The God of Genesis... that's you.

The God of wrath in the old testament... that's you

The God of compassion in the new testament... that's also you, after life here has beaten some sense into you.

Don't believe it?

Next time you are functioning in that capacity where someone has made you angry and you decide to "teach them a lesson" pay close attention, wait, watch, and see who ends up getting that lesson.


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chever
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10 Sep 2008, 9:02 am

Image


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slowmutant
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10 Sep 2008, 10:44 am

God is the voice from the whirlwind, the voice from the burning bush.

He refers to Himself as I AM.

God is mysterious, and if you can leave it at that you're my kinda people.



Accelerator
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10 Sep 2008, 4:07 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Accelerator wrote:
This is one definition of god.. that seems to have got left out..

The god inside..

The god revealed to us in the New testament..

That exists in hearts and minds.

Well, the issue is that I wanted to ignore a solipsist God. Either God is all of reality, or external to some of reality, despite how much he may personally relate to members of that reality, even being present on some level inside of them, he cannot just be inside an individual person, and still can function through a certain divide..


God is that inner spirit that connects us all together..

That is.. when we choose to listen to our higher nature.. rather than our lower nature.. (the devil).


Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I think that the Christian deity is usually considered personal, separate from the universe, and singular.


George Bush is considered to be a leader..

But is he.. ?



In my mind.. God.. is what ever we decide to define god to be.. depending on our purpose..

The Bible uses the word “God” in this way too..

Therefore.. defining the word appropriately.. is important.


For example.. if we want to establish a law.. like love your neighbour as yourself..

We would need to present God as being a figure of authority.. over and above governments.. judges and high priests.. our worldly lawmakers.

So.. then.. we give God a masculine personification.. and call God a “He”.. (pre-feminism)

That is purely tactical…

If we are addressing an organized religion.. that needs to believe in the supernatural.. we use mythology.. and metaphor.. etc.. to present God ambiguously.. so that the superstitious.. have supernatural events as evidence..

In this sense.. we have become all things.. to all.

Even the atheists have a supernatural being.. to disbelieve in…:-)


While the more serious seeker.. is confronted with symbols.. that need interpreting.. to provide the real hidden wisdom..

-----

“These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke, and which Didymos Thomas wrote down. Whoever finds the meaning of these sayings will not experience death.

Let him that seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will become astonished, and he will rule over all.

Jesus said: "Whoever drinks from my mouth shall become like me; and I shall become he, and the hidden things will be revealed to him.

One who seeks will find; for one who knocks it will be opened.”
-
Gospel of Thomas

-----


If we wish to think in terms of wholeness..

Like the whole being greater than the sum of its parts..

The word God can act as a symbol to represent this idea.. of the wholeness that lies behind all things.

-----

"Nick Herbert, a physicist who heads the C-Life Institute, suggests that we have merely discovered an elemental oneness of the world. This oneness cannot be diminished by spatial separation. An invisible wholeness unites the objects that are given birth in the universe, and it is this wholeness that we have stumbled into through modern experimental methods. Herbert alludes to the words of the poet Charles Williams: "Separation without separateness, reality without rift."

"The interrelation of human consciousness and the observed world is obvious in Bell's Theorem. Human consciousness and the physical world cannot be regarded as distinct, separate entities. What we call physical reality, the external world, is shaped - to some extent - by human thought. The lesson is clear; we cannot separate our own existence from that of the world outside. We are intimately associated, not only with the earth we inhabit, but with the farthest reaches of the cosmos."

http://astrosite.com/___QuantumPortal-5.htm

------

Then.. there is the God revealed to us in the New Testament..

Is this really the concept of God you would rather ignore.. ?

The God that exists in hearts and minds………….

A Spirit ( a dynamic drive).

The idea of God that Jesus explained to us.. though his actions and words.

----

"No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him."

John 1:18

-

"He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love."

1John 4:8

----

An idea that gets expanded in the Book of Revelation.. to…. the Seven Spirits of God.


The Seven Spirits of God are...

The spirit of loving kindness.. righteousness.. justice.. peace.. wisdom.. truth and freedom.


Jesus then.. taught an idea of God……... that is atheist friendly……. :-)

--------

“If you send forth your Spirit, they are created;

And you make the face of the Earth new.”

Psalm 104:30

-

http://www.apocatastasis.net/God/SEVEN- ... f-God.html

-



Last edited by Accelerator on 10 Sep 2008, 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

z0rp
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10 Sep 2008, 4:19 pm

chever wrote:
Image

So very appropriate. :lol:



greenblue
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10 Sep 2008, 4:24 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Well, the issue is that I wanted to ignore a solipsist God.

I don't see why necessarily dismissing the notion of God as a solipsist.


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Last edited by greenblue on 10 Sep 2008, 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

iamnotaparakeet
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10 Sep 2008, 4:25 pm

Personal, separate from the universe, singular.