Do some women like submissive men?

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V4der
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01 Oct 2008, 3:42 am

I was talking with my stepfather about how women crave guidance in their lives, thus are attracted to powerful leaders, not submissive men. He said that was correct, "but well, some women like submissive men..."

I don't believe this personally, but I'm open to new interpretations, and am interested in evolutionary, scientific reasons these theoretical women might be attracted to submissive men. Usually the male takes on the role of ultimate leader, protector, provider, and the women of the pack submit to this Alpha.

Any thoughts?

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JohnHopkins
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01 Oct 2008, 6:24 am

Of course SOME do. You can find a woman who's into virtually anything if you look hard enough.



slowmutant
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01 Oct 2008, 7:38 am

Some women are alphas and will make an omega out of their man.



Aspie_Chav
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01 Oct 2008, 8:03 am

mm.



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01 Oct 2008, 8:43 am

What an odd thing to say, a cursory glance around will show that there are all kinds of people in all kinds of relationships.

Even in the broader animal kingdom there are examples of matriarchs, the 'leader' being female.

In western society girls appear to be out stripping boys in terms of academic achievement. Increasinlgy there are women in senior political and business postions. Evolution doesn't stop..we're continually evolving (there's a clue in the word).

'People' are differentiated by self awarness from the rest of the critters on the planet, therefore you can't apply the same parameters. Choice rather than instinct kicks in.

I know plenty of hen pecked husbands and boyfriends. It occurs to me........if they didn't like it, why would they put up with it?

:?:


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slowmutant
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01 Oct 2008, 9:05 am

Sycorax wrote:
What an odd thing to say, a cursory glance around will show that there are all kinds of people in all kinds of relationships.

Even in the broader animal kingdom there are examples of matriarchs, the 'leader' being female.

In western society girls appear to be out stripping boys in terms of academic achievement. Increasinlgy there are women in senior political and business postions. Evolution doesn't stop..we're continually evolving (there's a clue in the word).

'People' are differentiated by self awarness from the rest of the critters on the planet, therefore you can't apply the same parameters. Choice rather than instinct kicks in.

I know plenty of hen pecked husbands and boyfriends. It occurs to me........if they didn't like it, why would they put up with it?

:?:


Maybe they weren't hen-pecked to begin with. But if you're born into a family where your two female siblings were the alphas from Day 1 -like me- it's not of your doing.



monkees4va
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01 Oct 2008, 9:05 am

It depends what you mean by submissive.... :wink:
lol
Nah, I think some women prefer their toast with jam, some with butter, some with both. I prefer a subtle mix so that they dominate me in some ways but I have the control in others (like how fast the relationship is going.) I wouldn't want a dominate man to choose when to go on to the next steps. I want to be in control there.


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LePetitPrince
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01 Oct 2008, 9:41 am

Quote:
Even in the broader animal kingdom there are examples of matriarchs, the 'leader' being female.


True ...but your way in saying it is scientifically wrong and misleading. It depends on which species you are talking about , for bees for example the queen (leader) is always female while among Lions society the alpha leader is always male. There's no special cases where the alpha leader is female among lions or male among the bees , this would need years of evolution to change that.

However , humans are primates and in all primate species ...the alphas are male , not female.


Quote:
In western society girls appear to be out stripping boys in terms of academic achievement. Increasinlgy there are women in senior political and business postions. Evolution doesn't stop..we're continually evolving (there's a clue in the word).


so true...the Y Chromosome is going to vanish one day :lol: .



As to answer Vader's question: No, most women don't like submissive men as completely submissive personality , such relations usually don't last long and are usually cut by the female side, simple as that.



ToughDiamond
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01 Oct 2008, 10:06 am

If a man is completely submissive then I expect most women don't like it at all. It's not attractive in women either, though there used to be a culture that seemed to suggest that was the only way for them to be. One partner of mine seemed overtly very submissive, and eventually it just made me feel like kicking her. She seemed to try to get her way by lots of guilt-tripping and bursting into tears at the slightest show of anger, so the submissiveness was fake in a way, she just had more hidden ways of exerting control. Women kind of get away with it if men expect them to be weak.

Generally I'd expect to be used mercilessly if I were very submissive. People nearly always lose respect for men who never assert themselves. The old "nice guy always comes last" thing. It's a statement of low self-esteem.

I guess most people like a balance, a willingness to share power.



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01 Oct 2008, 10:19 am

Most women are not as weak as people think. I think they pretty much want to be treated as equals on a daily basis but they do like men to be strong in the bedroom. I mean the kind of "I want you now" passion. But like all people, some women like to dominate all things. I think it's a matter of finding who is suitable to you. If you have trouble making decisions, then finding a woman who doesn't mind being in control could be a good thing. However if you like being in control, then you need one who wants to be taken care of.

Using guilt and tears is not a good way to be assertive. Tears should only be for real hurt.

I'm one of the females who doesn't mind being in charge of things though I want input about decisions. I could never turn the check book and bill paying to someone else. I don't want a man to tell me what to do but I do want to know what he thinks and wants and I would probably give it to him.


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0_equals_true
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01 Oct 2008, 10:44 am

LePetitPrince wrote:
However , humans are primates and in all primate species ...the alphas are male , not female.

You say this with what authority? It is false. Chimps are patriarchal yes. Bonobos (our closest genetic relative) are matriarchal. There are other matriarchal primates. Primate is a very large group to make such a sweeping statement. Get your facts right.

Humans share behaviours of both Chimps, and Bonobos, and unique individuality combined with social activity to the level of civilisation building.

Species with dominant alpha males usually have alpha females too. Alpha is not the dominant sex but the dominant within the sex, usually. Alpha does not apply in humans. You cannot use the word 'alpha' in the same context as there is so many overlapping groups that a) as much as some humans may be reeling from the lack of sex we have a much better chance of getting it than in some animals where one alpha get all the sex, and controls access to all the females even if he doesn't have sex with all of them i.e. some wolves. b) there is no absolute alphas in humans because the above is impracticable and apart from anything else there is a huge amount of preference and cross cultural breeding.

The problem you face is you expect things to be as simple as you can reason, and this is rarely the case in nature. Humans are not wholly egalitarian either. Things are a lot more complex, that Darwin first envisioned. Not all rosy by inference either.



LePetitPrince
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01 Oct 2008, 10:50 am

0_equals_true wrote:
LePetitPrince wrote:
However , humans are primates and in all primate species ...the alphas are male , not female.

You say this with what authority? It is false. Chimps are patriarchal yes. Bonobos (our closest genetic relative) are matriarchal. There are other matriarchal primates. Primate is a very large group to make such a sweeping statement. Get your facts right.

Humans share behaviours of both Chimps, and Bonobos, and unique individuality combined with social activity to the level of civilisation building.

Species with dominant alpha males usually have alpha females too. Alpha is not the dominant sex but the dominant within the sex, usually. Alpha does not apply in humans. You cannot use the word 'alpha' in the same context as there is so many overlapping groups that a) as much as some humans may be reeling from the lack of sex we have a much better chance of getting it than in some animals where one alpha get all the sex, and controls access to all the females even if he doesn't have sex with all of them i.e. some wolves. b) there is no absolute alphas in humans because the above is impracticable and apart from anything else there is a huge amount of preference and cross cultural breeding.

The problem you face is you expect things to be as simple as you can reason, and this is rarely the case in nature. Humans are not wholly egalitarian either. Things are a lot more complex, that Darwin first envisioned. Not all rosy by inference either.



umm....you are right about Bonobos ..Bonobos are exception but are the closest to humans , I was thinking more about common chimps , gorillas and other primate species


Quote:
Species with dominant alpha males usually have alpha females too. Alpha is not the dominant sex but the dominant within the sex, usually. Alpha does not apply in humans. You cannot use the word 'alpha' in the same context as there is so many overlapping groups that a) as much as some humans may be reeling from the lack of sex we have a much better chance of getting it than in some animals where one alpha get all the sex, and controls access to all the females even if he doesn't have sex with all of them i.e. some wolves. b) there is no absolute alphas in humans because the above is impracticable and apart from anything else there is a huge amount of preference and cross cultural breeding.


True about wolves ..but is there any special case reported where a hive of bees is leaded by a male or a pride of lions leaded by a lioness?
Alpha can means leader and can also means the best within the sex. For lions , since the leader is always a male then we can say that the socially dominant sex is male while the submissive sex is female . As for bees , we can call the male bee who reproduces with the queen as 'alpha male' since he's the fastest and so genetically the best , but he's never a leader ( he's killed once he reproduces), the females are, hence female is the dominant sex in bees community while the queen is the alpha female==leader.


As your theory that alpha doesn't apply in humans leads to another off-topic debate.



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01 Oct 2008, 11:19 am

While there is a social application of male dominance, such is not the absolute case. There are women who like submissive men; there are those who want equals, those who want a dominant mate, those who who find switching between is most effective for them. Trying to apply zoological principles in a matter so clouded with the aspect of choice is not practical, in my view. There have been human societies with a matriarchal basis as well; that argument feels rather weak to me. As said before - all people are different, and there are NO absolute hard and fast rules.


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01 Oct 2008, 11:34 am

LePetitPrince wrote:
umm....you are right about Bonobos, I was thinking more about common chimps , gorillas and other primate species

Btw the way I'm not in anyway implying that human males cannot exhibit dominant behaviour. They do all the time but it can switch, sometimes even with in seconds (this even happen in dogs which have a much more structured hierarchy). Egalitarian behaviour is the management of an undercurrent of primal behaviour, versus individuality no doubt about it. We are trying to control our hormones and primal urges and for good reason.

Not every one wants to be a vegetarian, but you can say that the choice to be one is a testament to our individuality. However this doesn’t mean that vegetarians won’t crave meat, but will have a variable degree of willpower to overcome this. Pretty amazing. We are capable of learnt behaviour to, as one might become phobic of meat for some reason, so therefore will have no desire to eat it. We can pass these behaviours onto others.

Even dogs become neurotic with inconsistent human owners, something that is less likely to happen in a pack structure, as they have a deep seated need for some pack behaviour and when this is not provided for it can be a conflict of interest between human dog relations. Sheep dogs are humans using the wolf instinct inside the dog to round up sheep. The dog will not kill the sheep only because its master is the alpha, so therefore gets first refusal. Some dog breeds will bite their owners if the owner under confident when out on a walk, but otherwise be affectionate at home. They are not rationalising “I don’t like this person”, etc. They literally attack the fear. If the owner becomes more confident the he dog can become less nervous aggressive. Watch the program ‘the dog whisper’ it is really interesting.

Even me as Asperger’s has trouble being around neurotic people. It make me nervous the outwardly jumpy people. Neurosis is just contagious as far as I’m concerned. So clearly our behaviour rubs of on people. Negativity however realistic can also be detected. That is important to not for us that don’t have all the inherent social skills,

In many ways human are at odds with themselves. We are trying to live in societies. We have wars, and even though we cause much carnage, some animals have no peace time at all and will constantly fight with neighbouring groups. We have a necessity not to do this because of the huge number we have no choice but to live in. We are a victim of our own success.

Btw the idea of Bonobos as peace loving is also a slightly premature observation. They can fight, just it is just rarer than chimps. There is no doubt the sex defuses conflicts. However chimps also have a lot of sex. Just it is underreported. It is possible that they use sex differently, the certainly share it around much less.

Just because we a related more closely to Bonobos doesn't mean are behaviours will be similar always. Behaviours can evolve faster then species do. We do not know what Bonobos were like when the diverged from chimps.



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01 Oct 2008, 11:38 am

Does the word "Henpecked" mean anything to anybody?

No?

How about "Pussy-Whipped"?

Some women can not sustain a relationship with a man unless the woman dominates the man.

Which then introduces the term "Dominatrix" to the discussion...


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01 Oct 2008, 11:40 am

Fnord wrote:
Does the word "Henpecked" mean anything to anybody?

No?

How about "Pussy-Whipped"?

Some women can not sustain a relationship with a man unless the woman dominates the man.

Which then introduces the term "Dominatrix" to the discussion...


...not the adult forum, Fnord. That said, there seems to be an opinion that dominance only occurs through sexual means, or by nagging. There is as wide a spectrum there as there are within all of us, yet we're focusing on such a small scope.


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