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ruveyn
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08 Feb 2009, 11:04 am

The_Cucumber wrote:

I agree that a government using nuclear weapons is extremely unlikely. Nuclear terrorism the major concern. Regardless, I think the worst case scenario involves only a handful of cities getting nuked. The only plausible way we could end up the authors of our own demise is a sudden global fuel shortage. And even that won't end civilization, it will simply scar it for a very long time.


One word: coal. We have enough for 200 years at least. There is no energy shortage. There is just a shortage of smarts.

ruveyn



Sand
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08 Feb 2009, 11:53 am

Well, as long as we're into poetry -

THE JANITAUR

There came a time, at last, for the race of man
To pack itself into a huge tin can
And, puffing plasma, set out for the stars.
With a sidelong glance at Mars they fled
From off their planet, which they'd made dead.
For a million years they'd picnicked on those grounds,
Then left them, bleak with blacks and browns
Of ragged rocks and rotting wrecks of trees and stinks
And oozing slimes and burning fogs smoke out of chinks.
Off to find another place on which to plant the human race.
Three quarters of a century it took to far Centaurus.
A multitude of winking beer cans marked their daily trail,
And stubbed out butts and bottles; a cracked recording
Of the Anvil Chorus. They'd scribbled on the firmament
With several hundred million miles of toilet paper
In jagged lines across their spoor of ion vapour,
And tastefully distributed along their run
Were gobs of dog and cat s**t by the ton.
Four hundred trillion cockroach corpses
Tumbled in a cometary tail
To advertise man's glory
In departure from his sun.

On planet four, Centaurus Alpha, lived a race of crystals.
Pristine, cubic, pyramid, cylindrical, prismatic,
Airborne, groundbased, and aquatic. How they shone
And twinkled in the sun as they rolled across the stones
Of their tesselated highways, threaded
'Round their crystal flowers
Reflecting intersecting rays of light
Connecting glassy towers.
Catching, tossing, juggling light beams just for fun -
But then...their huge reflectors duly noted,
Since they had been vacuum coated,
The approaching garbage complex fleeing from Earth's sun.
Facets flashed with fright and horror
At this disgusting Earth explorer
Come to desecrate their purity,
Violate their clarity, security,
Rain detritus down on everyone.
So, with haste and hyperspacial radio
The crystals sent a frantic call to Scorpio,
To the Cosmic Cleaner Consultation Center
Complaining of the coming filth fomenter.
"Earth," they screamed, "has done a flit.
And now is wildly flinging s**t.
Frankly, we are in a snit.
By your oath, you must stop it!"

And the Center answered, "Cool it kid,
We'll make it quit."


In Scorpio there is a place between the stars,
Stuck out in space, a place with bars
Which tight entombs a monster out of death and doom.
When the center acted on the call to banish
Earth's star ship and make it vanish,
It initiated mechanisms to enforce the ostracism
By directing cataclysm of the very fabric
Of the geodesic of its trace.
One parsec tall colossal doors on this place
Parted to divide and free the thing they'd kept inside.
It took six months to open wide at speeds FTL
And wake the beast that snoozed inside this convoluted shell.
The Janitaur pricked up its ears,
Wiped sleep from off its sensors,
It yawned a yawn and belched a belch
That squelched three nearby suns
And turned then into meteors
The size of hot cross buns.

"Janitaur," the Center spoke to now evoke
An action in this thing it woke,
"You are assigned to launch yourself
And search and find, eliminate
A new distress. Sector five, quadrant eight
Is the place you must address.
A steel ship out of Sol contains
All that now remains of humanity.
And with pandemic, systematic
Quite erratic antisanity
They've trashed their Earth, despised its worth,
And now they've quit their native sun
To litter up another one.
So..sic 'em baby, bite their tails
And knock their blocks right off the rails!"

At this command, the Janitaur unrolled its lacy wings
Which spanned out to a million miles, composed of cosmic strings.
Its flashing eyes - two neutron stars,
Pulsed out with spinning beams
With evil glances, left and right, from out of horrid dreams.
Grinning wide gravitic tide, its mouth a large black hole,
Each wicked tooth, bereft of ruth, a pointed monopole.
On winds of stellar fields it soared in hyperspacial mode
And gathered speed in looping glides and gyrals, so it rode
Swooping down galactic spirals hewing to its plan
To intercept and countervail the garbage can of man.
It gobbled moons like salted nuts
And sailed through stellar clouds
As cosmic dust streamed off its wings
In trailing ragged shrouds.

At sector five, quadrant eight, the Janitaur soon sighted
Where Earth's ship had left its trail
And thoroughly had blighted
The calm sterility of space.
With its black hole, the Janitaur
Swept clean the dirty place.
But this act could not console
The fearful driving force
That held it to its destiny in its destructive role.
At once, the human ship appeared,
The monster twisted, swerved and veered
To watch in fascination
The Earth ship unfailingly perform its aberration.
Spewing out with gobbets, with gigatons of garbage:
Apple cores and orange peels and leaves of rotten cabbage,
Worn out scraps of rubber heels,
Corroded chunks of rusty steels,
Dented trays from TV meals
And mashed up cars with wiggly wheels.

It flapped its wings and moved in close.
So much garbage made it savage,
Lachrymose and bellicose.
Confused, bemused, enthused by so much mess
It all induced internal stress.
It curled, it twirled, it whirled, became delirious,
And swooped in flopping manic arcs
Exploding out in corruscate displays
Initiating strange atom decays.
Bright beams of ions, neutrons, quarks
Flashed and fizzled, squirting sparks.
The edge of its event horizon twitched.
The space around the Janitaur became bewitched
With garbage boundlessly enriched.
It rippled out gravitic tongues
To sweep debris at all degrees
And would have laughed if it had lungs.
But these wild enthusiasms
Convulsed in waves and jerks and spasms
Causing cracks, fissures, chasms
In its black collapsar core.
Into itself it deeply plunged
And was, peculiarly, expunged

From this known universe of time and space.
And so, garbage, all of it,
Dogshit, catshit, mainly BS,
As before, and ever more,
Was the savior of the human race.



alba
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08 Feb 2009, 12:44 pm

spudnik wrote:
I don't know how old you are, but I was born in the 1960's, and it was always on everyone's mind, we even had air raid sirens going off at noon every day. Since the Cold war ended we are defiantly safer, I think any nuclear war would be a limited one, such as between India and Pakistan.


Pakistan and India, Pakistan and U.S., Pakistan and Europe....Pakistan and whoever, depending on the range of their delivery system.
A wink and a nod from China and it could be N.Korea as well.

Iran by 2011-2016... Possibly even sooner with assistance from N. Korea or Russia.. If N. Korea or Pakistan start nuclear war.....Either China or Russia, most likely, would be provoking and/or supporting their endeavors.

IMO...Pakistan has a lot of pressure from the west....N. Korea is being reigned in by China.. But who pray tell is reigning in Iran?



claire-333
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08 Feb 2009, 2:21 pm

The necromancing of this thread is making me miss members. :(



Awesomelyglorious
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08 Feb 2009, 4:11 pm

claire333 wrote:
The necromancing of this thread is making me miss members. :(

Hmm... yeah, I just generally hate the necromancing of threads in general. I've seen a number of people disappear over the years though. I dunno, my own opinion is that I feel that necromancing a thread removes the right of people to reinitiate the same conversation free of arguments written before they get up to start.



pakled
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08 Feb 2009, 4:44 pm

If North Korea gets the bomb, it's if
If Iran gets the bomb, it's when...



parts
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08 Feb 2009, 7:01 pm

http://www.delagostti-industries.com/bombshelters.html :skull:


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09 Feb 2009, 2:03 am

parts wrote:
http://www.delagostti-industries.com/bombshelters.html :skull:


You may be able to construct and live in a hidey-hole for a short period but life in general depends on an extremely complex interwoven energy complex dependent upon living under and gaining energy from the Sun and those other forms of life that depend upon sunlight. Unless there is some provision for large agricultural installations underground the whole effort is merely an elaborate mass grave. Atomic war will so obliterate natural energy processes on Earth that it might take hundreds or even thousands of years before life as we see it today can be resumed. Some living creatures may survive as past experience with other cosmic disasters such as the asteroid strike that destroyed the dinosaurs has demonstrated but it is unlikely that humans will be amongst the survivors unless either genetic engineering can radically change our physiology or humans find a way to go into suspended animation for a large number of centuries. Even if the latter can be managed the final world will probably be so different that survivors will either naturally succumb or commit mass suicide in horror of living on what will become an alien environment.



alba
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09 Feb 2009, 11:12 am

dlt



Last edited by alba on 09 Feb 2009, 11:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

parts
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09 Feb 2009, 11:19 am

You are assuming an all out shoot them all off war. I don't think this will happen but think it will be more limited


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09 Feb 2009, 11:57 am

parts wrote:
You are assuming an all out shoot them all off war. I don't think this will happen but think it will be more limited


The idiots now in control of the world don't have the sense to utilize its bounty for the benefit of all and the total psychotics in the military enchanted by the total power of nuclear armaments certainly cannot be counted upon to behave with any sense whatsoever. Add in the politically powerful religious fanatics and any military forbearance can pretty well be dismissed altogether.



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09 Feb 2009, 4:45 pm

Actually, the "total psychotics" in the military are among those most reluctant to ever use nuclear weapons. We've seen the results - remember Bikini Atoll? We developed a measure of damage potential of nuclear weapons - "megadeaths", or the number of millions of people expected to be killed by the use of nukes.

If the people of the military were the "total psychotics" you think, just slavering to use these deadly toys, North Vietnam and Cuba would today be glassy deserts - those were two places where the politicos wanted to use nukes, but were dissuaded by the generals. For that matter, on the other side, if military folks in general were so anxious to nuke everything in sight, why didn't the Soviets cover their withdrawal from Afghanistan with a little tactical nuclear strike or two? Why haven't the Chinese nuked any centers of dissent in Tibet? (And if you tell me that the Chinese leadership is worried about public opinion, I'll laugh right in your face.)

No, those of us educated in the fearsome power of these weapons are/were extremely reluctant to ever bring them out to play. It's the politicians, who never seem to see a future beyond the next election cycle (or five-year plan, in places that aren't concerned with elections) that should keep you up at night..


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09 Feb 2009, 8:44 pm

.... Megadeaths.... if war is global theyll be mesuring it in Gigadeaths... :x


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Sand
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09 Feb 2009, 11:04 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
Actually, the "total psychotics" in the military are among those most reluctant to ever use nuclear weapons. We've seen the results - remember Bikini Atoll? We developed a measure of damage potential of nuclear weapons - "megadeaths", or the number of millions of people expected to be killed by the use of nukes.

If the people of the military were the "total psychotics" you think, just slavering to use these deadly toys, North Vietnam and Cuba would today be glassy deserts - those were two places where the politicos wanted to use nukes, but were dissuaded by the generals. For that matter, on the other side, if military folks in general were so anxious to nuke everything in sight, why didn't the Soviets cover their withdrawal from Afghanistan with a little tactical nuclear strike or two? Why haven't the Chinese nuked any centers of dissent in Tibet? (And if you tell me that the Chinese leadership is worried about public opinion, I'll laugh right in your face.)

No, those of us educated in the fearsome power of these weapons are/were extremely reluctant to ever bring them out to play. It's the politicians, who never seem to see a future beyond the next election cycle (or five-year plan, in places that aren't concerned with elections) that should keep you up at night..


The only thing that stopped a use of nuclear weapons in the Cuban crisis was a last minute decision by JFK. The military was ready to use nuclear weapons.



parts
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11 Feb 2009, 10:32 am

Sand wrote:
DeaconBlues wrote:
Actually, the "total psychotics" in the military are among those most reluctant to ever use nuclear weapons. We've seen the results - remember Bikini Atoll? We developed a measure of damage potential of nuclear weapons - "megadeaths", or the number of millions of people expected to be killed by the use of nukes.

If the people of the military were the "total psychotics" you think, just slavering to use these deadly toys, North Vietnam and Cuba would today be glassy deserts - those were two places where the politicos wanted to use nukes, but were dissuaded by the generals. For that matter, on the other side, if military folks in general were so anxious to nuke everything in sight, why didn't the Soviets cover their withdrawal from Afghanistan with a little tactical nuclear strike or two? Why haven't the Chinese nuked any centers of dissent in Tibet? (And if you tell me that the Chinese leadership is worried about public opinion, I'll laugh right in your face.)

No, those of us educated in the fearsome power of these weapons are/were extremely reluctant to ever bring them out to play. It's the politicians, who never seem to see a future beyond the next election cycle (or five-year plan, in places that aren't concerned with elections) that should keep you up at night..


The only thing that stopped a use of nuclear weapons in the Cuban crisis was a last minute decision by JFK. The military was ready to use nuclear weapons.



But they didn't use them did they


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11 Feb 2009, 11:15 am

parts wrote:
Sand wrote:
DeaconBlues wrote:
Actually, the "total psychotics" in the military are among those most reluctant to ever use nuclear weapons. We've seen the results - remember Bikini Atoll? We developed a measure of damage potential of nuclear weapons - "megadeaths", or the number of millions of people expected to be killed by the use of nukes.

If the people of the military were the "total psychotics" you think, just slavering to use these deadly toys, North Vietnam and Cuba would today be glassy deserts - those were two places where the politicos wanted to use nukes, but were dissuaded by the generals. For that matter, on the other side, if military folks in general were so anxious to nuke everything in sight, why didn't the Soviets cover their withdrawal from Afghanistan with a little tactical nuclear strike or two? Why haven't the Chinese nuked any centers of dissent in Tibet? (And if you tell me that the Chinese leadership is worried about public opinion, I'll laugh right in your face.)

No, those of us educated in the fearsome power of these weapons are/were extremely reluctant to ever bring them out to play. It's the politicians, who never seem to see a future beyond the next election cycle (or five-year plan, in places that aren't concerned with elections) that should keep you up at night..


The only thing that stopped a use of nuclear weapons in the Cuban crisis was a last minute decision by JFK. The military was ready to use nuclear weapons.



But they didn't use them did they



Because JFK said no.