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Magnus
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16 Dec 2008, 1:14 am

Graham Hancock wrote a book called Supernatural. In this book he ties together aliens, angels, archetypes, demons, ghosts, fairies, and the like
in a historical account of human experience with this realm. One interesting thing that struck me was this idea of machine realms that many people who participated in Rick Strassman's research with DMT reported. The hallucinations these people had of aliens or intelligent robotic beings tuning in our frequency to receive specific thoughts that would be compatible to our belief system were shared by many people. How can they all have these same experiences without prior knowledge of each other or DMT?

http://www.rickstrassman.com/dmt/chaptersummaries.html

Quote:
"These worlds are usually invisible to us and our instruments, and are not accessible using our normal state of consciousness. However, just as likely as the theory that these worlds exist "only in our minds" is that they are, in reality, "outside us" and freestanding. If we simply change our brain's receiving abilities, we can comprehend and interact with them."

Rick Strassman


For example, alien abduction occurs in the mind but it is also occurring in another dimension. The same goes for all supernatural occurrences.
It's a very interesting book although it does get very redundant at times.

Do you believe aliens exist? Has anyone here seen anything supernatural?


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Sand
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16 Dec 2008, 1:33 am

What does it matter what you believe if you don't know?



richardbenson
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16 Dec 2008, 1:46 am

Magnus wrote:
Do you believe aliens exist? Has anyone here seen anything supernatural?
yes and i think i've seen a ufo once before


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Averick
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16 Dec 2008, 3:38 am

Yeah, right Richard. They were probably just probing Uranus. :wink:

Anyhow, this is a concept of the darkened mind, Jeungian thinking, archetypes, and all that minutiae. Perhaps we do or our ancestors have lived these trangressions, and therefore they've been passed to us inherited in our blood or sent to the unseen vectors of our delusion creating brains, waiting for a day when these things might be more palatable. I've meet people who have sworn they've been abducted, and I believe them, they function and make a happy normal living.



Legato
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16 Dec 2008, 3:44 am

First, allow me to demonstrate what "almost certain" means in mathematical terms (because the existence of aliens is a question of probability).

Imagine the dart board. The dart board has an infinite number of points on it. Each individual point has an area equal to zero. Therefore, if a dart strikes the dart board, the probability that any one point will be hit is zero. Likewise, the probability that any individual point will not be hit is one. However, the system must exist in a state, and we know by inference of the action taking place that one point WILL be hit. Therefore it is almost certain that any individual point will not be hit.

To aliens: Inferring that abiogenesis (life from non-life) occurred at some point in the billions of years in the existence of the universe, it is certain that life was made somewhere in the universe. Factoring in the vastness of space, the abundance of life-forming elements, et cetera, it is almost certain (asymptotically to a probability of one) that life developed in more than one point in the universe over many billions of years.

Having established that, we must factor in again the vastness of space in relation to travel, and (most importantly) the vastness of time in relation to when they developed in the billions of years and the chances of them obliterating themselves or evolving into or creating technology that transformed them into transphysical beings. Combine that with the probability of sentience evolving and the subsequent technology required to travel to Earth from their home system (most probably in another galaxy), and the notion that this alien species is one that could or would desire to travel and interact with other species.... It is almost certain that the human race will never encounter aliens (asymptotically to a probability of zero).

To recap: It's almost certain aliens existed at one point, and most probably many species developed in many galaxies and systems in the universe. It is also almost certain that we'll never see them - however if we can develop faster-than-light travel, chances may be good that we can find remnants of alien civilizations before us.

Sorry if my math and logic ruined your speculative fun.

To prod another one of your points (probably a bigger one), the almost certainty that we will never encounter live aliens and the nature of the abductees leads to the inevitable conclusion via probability comparison that they are all liars or hallucinatory.



Averick
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16 Dec 2008, 3:54 am

Legato, your argument is self-defeatist.
You limit your thinking to what men have already thought for you.
That's why your math is Pascal, not Einstein.

Human comprehension is solipsistic.
There's no knowing what another can possibly know or feel,
it can only be deduced.



Legato
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16 Dec 2008, 4:14 am

Do you say this because I do not accept claims of supernatural phenomena, and therefore base my thinking on the material realm? When you say that I limit my thinking to what others have already thought for me, would you suggest that I instead begin to posit things in reality that do not have justification?

Besides, the notion of alien interaction or even existence cannot be known until we obtain objectively verifiable evidence of the notion. But you can believe what you want, and I'd rather believe as many true things and as few possible things as possible.



Magnus
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16 Dec 2008, 4:27 pm

Why should we just dismiss it because it is not yet understood. There can be much learned from this. For example, Francis Crick, the nobel prize winning genius admitted in private to his colleagues that he took LSD to help him think and be creative. He was under the influence of LSD in 1953 at the moment when he perceived the double helix shape and unraveled the structure of DNA.


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16 Dec 2008, 4:44 pm

i'll report back whenever i've finally been able to track down some DMT.


probably need to do some acid first as a primer...i doubt the jump from shrooms to DMT would be a smooth one.


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history_of_psychiatry
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16 Dec 2008, 5:09 pm

Humans actually have six senses. The sixth sense is the sense of empathy/intuition. Isn't it another way to sense? We all have the sixth sense but may not use it fully. People who are "psychics" actually just have a very very good sense of empathy/intuition and can feel people and things quite well.

There are more stars in the universe than grains of sand in the entire world. There MUST be life out there. Even skeptical scientists will tell you the chances of there being life out there is much much greater than no life existing out there. So if there have to be other life forms, who's to say we are the most intelligent species in the universe? Chances are there are macrobes which is what a human is to a bacterium or virus (microbes). We are probably like sheep to them and they are doing a damn good job of controlling us like sheep.

Everything that exists is really made of energy, no matter whether it is a liquid, solid, gas, plasma, or human thought. You can't destroy energy. You can't make something out of nothing. You can only alter it. When you die where do all your emotions, thoughts, feelings, ideas, and consciousness go? They are energy and cannot disappear. They still have to exist on some plane. When a toy runs out of batteries, that energy is still there. Sometimes strong energy can be "recorded" into places or things because they are energy. "Ghosts" and "poltergeists" are caused be the extreme energy of someone or something and on occasions, we can see feel, touch or hear the recorded energy of something extreme that happened.


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Magnus
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16 Dec 2008, 5:14 pm

DMT is in our brains. It is estimated that about 2% of the population is able to enter trance states and experience hallucinations.
A shaman is someone who has mastered his mind and can shift consciousness at will. Maybe we all can get better at this without internally taking DMT.
It is illegal in the US. Salvia Divinorum is not illegal and it lasts only 15 minutes or so. It is more potent than shrooms.

http://www.sagewisdom.org/faq.html

skafather, if you do experiment with DMT, let us know.

richardbenson, have you really seen a UFO? Where? What did it look like?

history of psychiatry, I agree with you. I think energy does not need to reside in a physical form to exist.


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skafather84
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16 Dec 2008, 5:29 pm

Magnus wrote:
skafather, if you do experiment with DMT, let us know.


i hear that taking DMT is a fairly life-changing experience for most so it should be interesting. it'll be really interesting because i don't get visuals when i do hallucinogens and this is pretty much guaranteed visuals. should be interesting to see how i react both physically to the substance but also mentally to the state that it'll put me in. my understandings of how it works will probably temper how i react (and make my reactions much more mild than someone who'd be more prone to panic) but should still be an interesting story.


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16 Dec 2008, 5:49 pm

Legato wrote:
the notion of alien interaction or even existence cannot be known until we obtain objectively verifiable evidence of the notion. But you can believe what you want, and I'd rather believe as many true things and as few possible things as possible.

I agree, we can only speculate about the possibility, after all, the idea of living beings existing outside earth, is a human concept, comming from asking questions when observing the sky.

history_of_psychiatry wrote:
Humans actually have six senses. The sixth sense is the sense of empathy/intuition. Isn't it another way to sense? We all have the sixth sense but may not use it fully. People who are "psychics" actually just have a very very good sense of empathy/intuition and can feel people and things quite well.

I tend to think this 6th sense thing to be just a myth, intuition and empathy categorized as senses, would be incorrect, there are more than 5 senses however, categorized as external and internal, but nothing to do with the paranormal.

richardbenson wrote:
yes and i think i've seen a ufo once before

The issue is, if what we saw it is actually what we think it is, after all, what we perceive can be subjected to several interpretations, and I could say that different people would differ depending on their own beliefs and their own point of view, to come up with their own conclusion of what was what the believe they saw, especially if it is something unknown, it can be tricky. *My opinion here*

Magnus wrote:
Do you believe aliens exist? Has anyone here seen anything supernatural?

Something that I have wondered is why aliens and UFOs have to be categorized as paranormal or supernatural? if aliens existed, wouldn't they be part of nature, just like us?


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Magnus
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16 Dec 2008, 6:30 pm

The research conducted by Rick Strassman with DMT showed that people had similar experiences with aliens as abductees reported.
It may not make it less real. His theory is that it occurs in the consciousness and also in a dimension that we are not able to see. How can all these people report the same thing about aliens?

I think people prefer the idea of aliens over other supernatural phenomenon because they can fit it neatly into their belief system.
There is much more to life as we know it. I don't think we are the most intelligent life in all the universe nor are our senses the best at deciphering reality. Reading Supernatural sheds new light on the alien phenomenon and makes it seem much more plausible in my opinion.


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Legato
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16 Dec 2008, 6:33 pm

More to the point, there is no such thing as the supernatural, because once we demonstrate it to exist, it's by definition a part of the natural realm. The reason they are called supernatural is because they don't exist.

As per DMT, it's actually the one drug I've always wanted to do but never got a shot at it. I've done LSD thrice and shrooms more times than i can count (~25-30 I believe). Hallucinations are fun and interesting, but it obviously does not tell you anything new about reality as if you're tapping into some divine knowledge hub. Any delusion that says otherwise would inevitably leave you believing your hallucinations next time you drop acid. However, hallucinogens are definitely creative tools to say the least.

As far as linking DMT with aliens.... are you serious?

Magnus wrote:
The research conducted by Rick Strassman with DMT showed that people had similar experiences with aliens as abductees reported.
It may not make it less real. His theory is that it occurs in the consciousness and also in a dimension that we are not able to see. How can all these people report the same thing about aliens?


Because aliens have permeated our culture since Roswell. I could possibly make the same argument for Christianity that in near-death experiences they all see a white light tunnel and Jesus - but Muslims see something else, and Buddhists see something else, etc, etc, etc.

Magnus wrote:
I think people prefer the idea of aliens over other supernatural phenomenon because they can fit it neatly into their belief system.
There is much more to life as we know it. I don't think we are the most intelligent life in all the universe nor are our senses the best at deciphering reality. Reading Supernatural sheds new light on the alien phenomenon and makes it seem much more plausible in my opinion.


Alien existence is almost certain, mathematically speaking. Also, please stop calling aliens supernatural. If they exist, then they are simply natural. After all, it wouldn't be accurate for the aliens to call us supernatural, would it?



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16 Dec 2008, 6:39 pm

Magnus wrote:
aliens, angels, archetypes, demons, ghosts, fairies, and the like
I am not a believer in the supernatural, although I like the idea.
Magnus wrote:
DMT is in our brains. It is estimated that about 2% of the population is able to enter trance states and experience hallucinations.
I am already very dissociative, frankly see it as a flaw, and could not imagine trying to do it on purpose. I have never had a hallucination, and also cannot imagine wanting to induce such a state. I am nutty enough without seeing things that are not there.