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Orwell
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25 Dec 2008, 4:02 am

Awesomelyglorious once started a very entertaining thread called "Argue for a position you do not believe in" which somehow managed to remain on topic and civil for a very long time. It has long since sunk into oblivion, but it was a fun concept and I'm bringing it back. The rules should be obvious if you are not a moron, so I won't bother explaining them. Try to pick something interesting, at least. And no cheating.

A universal draft should be mandatory, during times of peace as well as war. In the increasingly hostile world in which America can no longer so easily claim absolute dominance, it is imperative that we go to any and all lengths to retain our military superiority, and we can't do that while the spoiled youth of our nation neglect their sacred duty to defense of the motherland. Military service is the solemn obligation of any who would call themselves loyal citizens, and should be a prerequisite to voting and even to owning property. We have cheapened liberty by granting it to everyone on the basis that they live here; it is time for the people to learn that freedom isn't free. All Americans, male and female, able-bodied and crippled, natural-born and illegal alien, honor student and juvenile delinquent, should at the age of 18 be required to undergo intensive military training and complete at minimum a three-year term of service with no compensation other than food and lodging. After this period, the majority will likely retire to the reserves, but until the age of 50 can still be called up at a moment's notice whenever their country needs them. This will imbue in Americans a heightened sense of patriotism and duty, improve discipline and morality, and ensure that our military will never be understaffed because it will always have plentiful reserves of well-trained soldiers ready to come to America's defense. If there is no need for additional military personnel, then after completing military training the term of national service should be devoted to construction projects or other useful labor for the national government(again, with no compensation other than food and lodging). This will permit the government to produce a surplus of goods at cheap price which it can then export, resolving our trade imbalances. A demand to serve one's country is not tyranny but a just component of the social contract. Your life, liberty, and property are not yours but belong to society as a whole, and your use of them is contingent on that being in line with national interests.


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DentArthurDent
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25 Dec 2008, 5:30 am

Orwell; I like the idea! however it is the 25 Dec, I have a full house and I have drunk far to much trying to cope with the intricate social complexities required for such an occasion. I will however post an impassioned plea for the separation of cultures and the restriction of migration once I have my full mental capacities restored :drunken:

Also Orwell, I wish you well for Christmas


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Orwell
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25 Dec 2008, 5:40 am

Excellent, I look forward to seeing some Aussie xenophobia soon. And merry Christmas to you as well, and my condolences for your social overload.


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Magnus
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25 Dec 2008, 5:52 am

Humans should stop taking baths. It is not natural to use soap to strip the skin of its protective oils. We should abide by the laws of nature and allow our bodies to reclaim their natural odor because it allows others to get to know us better. When our scent is disguised it gives others a false impression of ourselves and therefore it is a form of manipulation. As humans, we need to be honest with one another so that we can cultivate trust and thereby reduce the rate of criminal activity.


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DentArthurDent
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25 Dec 2008, 5:53 am

Not wanting to get off topic but red wine is a great equaliser, maybe big J was onto something :wink:


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Sand
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25 Dec 2008, 6:14 am

Might as well pick something totally horrifying. There are millions of people dying of starvation each year. Why not remove all inhibitions to them eating each other. It will lower the population pressure and it can be worked so that Christians and Muslims eat each other and not their own religious compatriots. A flood of new recipe books should hit the market shortly.

If massive cannibalism is repulsive, we could merely consume politicians and lawyers and financial crooks that commit disasters. That should certainly keep them on their toes.



Sand
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25 Dec 2008, 6:36 am

Here's another very bad idea that has interesting implications. Gun advocates generally believe that if everybody is armed and trained it will discourage criminals. Why not apply that to the international situation? The USA has thousands of atomic weapons it could not use even if the occasion arose so why not give them out to all nations that want them. So far all nations that have attained atomic capability have severely cut down their aggressive tactics. For example, once India and Pakistan have becom atomic powers they have found it much more practical to talk rather than fight. If every nation were given a number of atomic bombs with delivery vehicles and any nation that used one would immediately become a target for atomic reprisal by all the others, it might establish a bit more caution about starting wars.



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25 Dec 2008, 2:52 pm

Sand wrote:
Here's another very bad idea that has interesting implications. Gun advocates generally believe that if everybody is armed and trained it will discourage criminals. Why not apply that to the international situation? The USA has thousands of atomic weapons it could not use even if the occasion arose so why not give them out to all nations that want them. So far all nations that have attained atomic capability have severely cut down their aggressive tactics. For example, once India and Pakistan have becom atomic powers they have found it much more practical to talk rather than fight. If every nation were given a number of atomic bombs with delivery vehicles and any nation that used one would immediately become a target for atomic reprisal by all the others, it might establish a bit more caution about starting wars.


Seriously, this seems like a reasonable idea! Also, the only people insane enough to shoot off the nukes would be religious extremists wanting to trigger the 'rapture' or something. Then in any given country the sane people would have to do anything and everything in their power to repress the extremists and nip them in the bud. Well, what do you know, a plan for World Peace!


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Ancalagon
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25 Dec 2008, 3:09 pm

Sand wrote:
Might as well pick something totally horrifying. There are millions of people dying of starvation each year. Why not remove all inhibitions to them eating each other. It will lower the population pressure and it can be worked so that Christians and Muslims eat each other and not their own religious compatriots. A flood of new recipe books should hit the market shortly.

If massive cannibalism is repulsive, we could merely consume politicians and lawyers and financial crooks that commit disasters. That should certainly keep them on their toes.


Ever read Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal"?

Link here:
A Modest Proposal


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25 Dec 2008, 3:41 pm

Well, here is my ironic 'Devil's Advocate' piece:

The United States must become a Christian Theocracy. PRAISE THE LORD! Only by the infallible Word Of God can we overcome the evil plagues of Muslims, Buddhist, homosexuals and rock music. PRAISE THE LORD! We must unquestionably obey the leaders of the Church because they are from God himself! Anyone who asks questions is clearly from SATAN and must PAY dearly for such faithlessness! PRAISE THE LORD! Because when the Leaders are wrong all that proves is that the Devil can trick anyone and we faithful sheep need the Leaders even MORE because of these undeniable facts that cannot be doubted! PRAISE THE LORD!

Our people must be governed by the Light of the Mosaic Law because its the only law He ever gave us and its the best we have even after He said to stop using it. PRAISE THE LORD! And our young men must all serve as His Holy Warriors to spread the Love and Light of the Lord to the lands of pagans and unbelievers with Holy Genocide! PRAISE THE LORD!

And the Faithful must band together to banish the modern witchcraft known as Science! All of those Filthy Atheists who waste money on particle accelerators and telescopes and THEN have the gall to claim that We are not at the center of the Universe! Money that could have been used to arm our Holy Warriors with more nerve gas! PRAISE THE LORD! What an immoral waste! Then there are those Filthy Paleontologists who most demonically cooperate with Satan's deception of the so-called dinosaur bones! Such hearsay! Claiming that earth is more then 6000 years old and this horrid evolution blasphemy! PRISE THE LORD! May He forgive us for ever allowing Science with in our borders and darken our lands! No wonder He allowed the Evil Muslims to carry out 9/11 with their magical jet fuel that can melt steel and magical disappearing airplane that hit our valiant commanders in the Pentagon! And then the punishment He sent in hurricane Katrina! And the Evil Scientists even go so far as to blame US for the storm by this 'global warming' lie, THEY want to take away our God Given Right to burn gas and coal! Those evil scientists would tare down down our God Blessed corporations and leave us defenseless against the godless likes of the French and the Canadians!

PRAISE THE LORD! We will prevail over the falsely called 'rationalists' and those who spout Satanic propaganda of tolerance and understanding! We will stomp out gays and science and the Smurfs! We will be blessed for a thousand years! PRAISE THE LORD!

WE WILL PREVAIL!

PRAISE THE LORD!

Image


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Ancalagon
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25 Dec 2008, 4:20 pm

All women should get breast implants.

Let's face it, natural boobs are ugly. And they're never big enough. There's no such thing as big enough. And it's not like there are any other parts of a woman that are beautiful.

Barbie had it right all along, except her boobs weren't big enough. If she's not skinny enough to make a toothpick look fat, she's not skinny enough.

Some people believe we should look inside someone to find their inner beauty. Well me too, if the sacks of silicone inside her are big enough.


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ruveyn
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31 Jan 2009, 7:52 am

Orwell wrote:
Awesomelyglorious once started a very entertaining thread called "Argue for a position you do not believe in" which somehow managed to remain on topic and civil for a very long time. It has long since sunk into oblivion, but it was a fun concept and I'm bringing it back. The rules should be obvious if you are not a moron, so I won't bother explaining them. Try to pick something interesting, at least. And no cheating.

A universal draft should be mandatory, during times of peace as well as war. In the increasingly hostile world in which America can no longer so easily claim absolute dominance, it is imperative that we go to any and all lengths to retain our military superiority, and we can't do that while the spoiled youth of our nation neglect their sacred duty to defense of the motherland. Military service is the solemn obligation of any who would call themselves loyal citizens, and should be a prerequisite to voting and even to owning property. We have cheapened liberty by granting it to everyone on the basis that they live here; it is time for the people to learn that freedom isn't free. All Americans, male and female, able-bodied and crippled, natural-born and illegal alien, honor student and juvenile delinquent, should at the age of 18 be required to undergo intensive military training and complete at minimum a three-year term of service with no compensation other than food and lodging. After this period, the majority will likely retire to the reserves, but until the age of 50 can still be called up at a moment's notice whenever their country needs them. This will imbue in Americans a heightened sense of patriotism and duty, improve discipline and morality, and ensure that our military will never be understaffed because it will always have plentiful reserves of well-trained soldiers ready to come to America's defense. If there is no need for additional military personnel, then after completing military training the term of national service should be devoted to construction projects or other useful labor for the national government(again, with no compensation other than food and lodging). This will permit the government to produce a surplus of goods at cheap price which it can then export, resolving our trade imbalances. A demand to serve one's country is not tyranny but a just component of the social contract. Your life, liberty, and property are not yours but belong to society as a whole, and your use of them is contingent on that being in line with national interests.


Unfortunately, your argument makes a lot of sense. The only counter-argument I can offer is that liberty is more desirable than servitude even if excess "liberty" leads to social calamity.

In short, we are between a rock and a hard place. Too much liberty and we cannot defend ourselves. If we have the where with all to defended our selves by conscripting an army we limit our liberty. It is a no win situation. So we must choose the lesser of evils (yet again!).

By the way there is no social contract. There are laws and customs but nothing legally binding as an a priori duty. Only contracts that are entered into consciously and willingly are morally and legally binding. The "social contract" was invented by creatures such as Jean Jaques Ruseau.

ruveyn

ruveyn



Orwell
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31 Jan 2009, 8:54 am

ruveyn wrote:
Unfortunately, your argument makes a lot of sense. The only counter-argument I can offer is that liberty is more desirable than servitude even if excess "liberty" leads to social calamity.

In short, we are between a rock and a hard place. Too much liberty and we cannot defend ourselves. If we have the where with all to defended our selves by conscripting an army we limit our liberty. It is a no win situation. So we must choose the lesser of evils (yet again!).

By the way there is no social contract. There are laws and customs but nothing legally binding as an a priori duty. Only contracts that are entered into consciously and willingly are morally and legally binding. The "social contract" was invented by creatures such as Jean Jaques Ruseau.

Well, the point of the thread was to create convincing arguments that at least some other people would agree, but which you personally do not. The other thread turned out much better, actually, most of the devil's advocates so far in this thread have pretty much sucked.


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gina-ghettoprincess
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31 Jan 2009, 9:09 am

(This is a good idea, cos it's actually quite hard to argue for something you disagree with. Like when we have debates at school, they don't let you choose what side you're on. It would be hard for me to argue anti-immigration, because I strongly believe that immigration is important and enriches the lives of many. So I'll try that one now...)

OK...in nature, people and animals should stick to their own kind. They don't mix, and this keeps the races pure. Pure races are how God intended it, and to disobey God's law is evil and will bring about the apocalypse.


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31 Jan 2009, 9:39 am

gina-ghettoprincess wrote:
(This is a good idea, cos it's actually quite hard to argue for something you disagree with. Like when we have debates at school, they don't let you choose what side you're on. It would be hard for me to argue anti-immigration, because I strongly believe that immigration is important and enriches the lives of many. So I'll try that one now...)

OK...in nature, people and animals should stick to their own kind. They don't mix, and this keeps the races pure. Pure races are how God intended it, and to disobey God's law is evil and will bring about the apocalypse.

Well, here, an example of how to argue against immigration when you don't believe it. (I am pro-immigration personally)

Illegal immigrants undercut American workers and exert downward pressure on the wages of US laborers. They also take advantage of our medical system and other aspects of welfare. They refuse to integrate into our culture and learn our language, creating higher costs for businesses that must cater to a multi-lingual population or risk being falsely labeled racist. The US has a unique and distinctive culture that must be preserved against foreign influences who refuse to adopt the customs of their new land- if they wish to retain their own culture, they should stay where it is. Such unresolved racial and cultural tensions between irreconcilable groups poses a threat to the order and stability of our society and should be prevented, and this can only be done by stemming the tide of immigration. Besides that, an opposition to immigration flows naturally from a respect for the rule of law- illegal immigrants are, by definition, criminals. Are we going to allow them to openly flout the law, and indeed reward them for breaking the law? No, immigration has gone too far. New immigrants are not becoming a part of American culture, rejecting all our cherished values, and taking our jobs. The rule of law must be upheld, illegal immigrants must be sent back where they came from, and stricter controls on immigration must be imposed to limit the influx of new immigrants.

Meh, not my best devil's advocate ever. But you get the idea.


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gina-ghettoprincess
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31 Jan 2009, 9:41 am

Yeah, yours is better than mine.


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