Reality & Perception

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What is the relationship between reality and perception? Do I perceive a thing because it is real, or is a thing real because I have perceived it?

Specifically in relation to supernatural beliefs and spiritual realms.

Reality is independent of perception. Perception can give us an idea of reality, accurate enough most of the time to act on as though we understand reality, but perception is not fool-proof.

So a thing can be real whether I perceive it or not?

Of course. Do you deny the reality of electrons? Do you believe Algeria exists? You've never perceived either of those. Reality does not simply pop into being as we perceive it. It exists, and we gradually become aware of bits and pieces of it.

Reality is not always reflected in perception. Agree?

Yes. I already said that.

There doesn't have to be any relationship. I can think i'm real good at painting but i'm crap (but crap and good are subjective states?).

I think 'real' and 'exists objectively' need to be seperated. A brick exists objectively, you know this when it's thrown at you. Imagination is real, you know this when you're scared out of your skull by a spider, which is hardly physically threatening.

I define something as existing objectively when it is independent of being within a human's mind. Something can be real and still be inside our minds, like morality. If you punch me, you've been immoral and you've got a hurt hand. If you punch a wall, you've got a hurt hand.

In relation to supernatural beliefs: these beliefs are real, but if they don't hurt when they're metaphorically thrown at you, i don't believe they're objectively existent. But then again, morality, emotions and thought are real too, and not objectively existent.

Can we make things objectively existent by believing in them? If I punch you because you've offended me, then my beliefs have had an effect on the envirnoment (my belief that i can use violence to solve problems), and so can be said to have objective force behind them.

I think i've answered your question? Is a very good question.

Also: it could probably be said that the idea of god is god himself, it doesn't matter if he exists objecitvely, he still has power through his followers.

Well, yes, thoughts and beliefs are real, although those are immaterial and abstract things that don't exist in the physical world which cannot exist objectively.


well, the 'objective force' describes the result of said action, and the belief that the action would provoke something unpleasent, that would be an objective reality, however, the action cannot exist without a belief, thought or emotion which is being defended, or the motivation of a given response, which is something subjective and the basic principle the action is based on.

Thanks for the summary of what i just said, greenblue.

Yes. So a subjective thought [anger] is an objective cause[swing of arm] for an objective consequence [hurt face]. So it could be said that subjective beliefs cause objective actions.

What does reality matter if perception exists? You might have perceptual rules to make sure that what you perceive integrates to make a better perceptual framework for your purposes, but beyond that, what does it matter? Even if you perceive a spiritual force that isn't real, I don't see why you cannot have a real relationship to it.

Yes!

Oh no! We are entering the territory of the ontological argument!!

Sooner or later, AG, we all face ontological arguments.

Oh no! It is here!!

1. It is proposed that a being has maximal excellence in a given possible world W if and only if it is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good in W; and
2. It is proposed that a being has maximal greatness if it has maximal excellence in every possible world.
3. Maximal greatness is possibly exemplified. That is, it is possible that there be a being that has maximal greatness. (Premise)
4. Therefore, possibly it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists.
5. Therefore, it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists. (By S5)
6. Therefore, an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists.

If the idea of God is coherent, then he must exist!! Nooooo!! ! Either the idea must be incoherent and thus a proper idea of God not existing in the minds of followers, or God must exist outside of the minds of followers! Curse you Anselm for originally coming up with the idea, and curse you Plantinga for rehashing the old idea!

Anselm's so-called proof is bogus from A to Z, from alpha to omega.

ruveyn