There's simply no other explanation...

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This. Good one, Miss Construe.

Maybe it's because you're living in New Jersey. Whenever I meet northern chicks it seems like they're all lesbians. But I don't have that excuse.

Seriously though, some people are just simply more unlucky about this than others. I'm also on the very unlucky side. The only thing that keeps me sane is keeping a sense of humor about the matter.

It isn't just the weight. I'm lighter and taller than you, my roommate is heavier than you but he is the only one among us three that is having any success at the moment. From what I've seen I think some women are chubby chasers so don't give up hope, but give up some hope to avoid the pain that hope causes if that makes any sense.

Yeah, some of us are just jinxed as far as the whole love thing goes.
I personally have never met ANY woman who's shown the slightest interest in me, and on the ones I'VE been interested , in, i'm 0 for 3.

From what I've seen, the people that are engaged in such activities, even if they are single, aren't necessarily looking for partners. So sure, it would be a great way to make friends... not a bad thing at all... but I would still be single...


And what I do at my church is very important to me. Despite the fact that my church has no active 18-25 members except myself, the people that are there are still very important to me...



I dunno... maybe I'm just afraid of becoming a narcissist... I was told once that I came off as such merely because I talked about myself so much, and since then I've been kind of phobic about feeling good about myself without some sort of external validation... it would make sense, given my own psyche... I also don't drink because I know that if I drink one beer, I'm going to end up drinking 12 in one sitting...


It wasn't directly my fault, was it?


Not a problem... speak away... you've listened to me ramble enough already...

I wholeheartedly agree in the idea, but the execution is what's been boggling my mind... Even after a period of binge eating that might cause me to gain weight, I will eventually return to 275 pounds, and it will just hold steady there.


There's a walking path near my house that I occasionally like to walk on, but only when it's not taken up by hundreds of other people...



Well, umm, thanks... It's nice to know that someone can still listen to me after I go on rather lengthy rants...

Isn't that false advertising?


Well, just because I can't find love doesn't mean I'm just going to abandon all life... outside of the romance department, I'm actually holding my own... I'm working towards completing a bachelor's degree, after all... But even given that, it doesn't make me feel any less lonely...


I dunno... I never really thought of those "test-the-water dates" as actual dates...


So, in other words, I should just stick to other aspies only? People that won't use such body language against me?


Are you sure? Everytime I try to put my foot out the door, I tend to get burned...

I hate to say it... but you're shooting down ideas before trying them, and discouraging yourself further. And as I've said repeatedly, the value of friendships cannot be understated in relationships - both in terms of those evolving into something more, and in terms of the feedback one may get from friends over the course of experience. You make time for your church, because it is important to you... you posit that it is one of the places you've attempted despite the fact that there are no active members in the age group that you're seeking. Perhaps, not changing churches, but going to sing with another one would expose you to new people. But whether you choose to extend yourself to pursue something indicates either you want it or you do not. This applies to yourself, as well as how others may likely interpret your decision... and if you choose to remain in routine lock-step and do not try something different, then there is a good chance things will remain as they are. Those of us on the spectrum are often called self-centered, and which can come across as narcissism to those unfamiliar. From what I can see, you are seeking external validation - from a relationship, or even from coming here to talk about things... and that isn't a bad thing. Validation, especially when we question ourselves, our interpretations and our responses to others, is an essential part of gaining (or regaining) confidence. Have you considered that, at 275, this is how you see yourself? And therefore, even with some effort, keep returning to what is comfortable and familiar? Plateaus in weight loss aren't unusual; sometimes they last a short while, sometimes for long periods, but they are not permanent and you can overcome these obstacles.


M.

It depends whether you can teach yourself to see yourself that way, if you can then there's nothing false about it. I'm not saying overembellish or puff your profile with all kinds of watersports and travel that you don't do, that definitely would be false advertising (unless your feeling that ambitious to change things up). I'm just saying a subtle spin, most importantly though it has to be a spin that you find believable after some self-searching and one that you believe that you can defend. You have to aim for the positive though, not even just in dating - I mean for you even when there's no dating at stake.



No suggestion intended at abandoning life. When I say trying to be happy with your life I don't mean resignation, if anything I think having some big goals and sticking to them can help. If you can in fact achieve your way out of depression to a point just by goals and ambitions but also that alone tends not to be enough and at that point it takes evaluating yourself as compassionately as honestly rather than just letting the inner critic tare you to shreds without another voice contesting him.



Well, there you go - whatever you'd think of them as. It's what most people have to do and if you can get out there and try it you'll have better odds of making things move forward, at the very least you learn a lot about yourself (not meaning the negative, I mean some of the questions that are asked, some of the things you may have never thought to ask yourself even).



No. I don't think NT's 'use' it against people either. You have to remember that on this level we're creatures of instinct, if NT's get vexed by it it's some deliberate ploy to rip you down or reject you, its genuine confusion because they don't know what to make of it. I think you can get through it if you can get on a date, but I think the area that this really schools us on is talking to people who don't know us. It pretty much means that the bar scene's almost impossible - college or social networking group, maybe.




I think the only other thing I could mention that I haven't so far, maybe for your own reassurances try to do what you can to work on your empathy quotient and actively show people that your get them and that your on the same page as they are? Even though I've had a hard time myself, I'm strange in that I have NT level EQ but I'm still not sure whether that's something I was able to learn from other people or something that I had the ability for but was constantly told that being on spectrum I couldn't possibly have it.

When your out with women though or even just talking to them, texting, whatever, when you talk to them or pull things out of them they want to feel like their talking to someone who gets them - and likewise its a plus if you can be out with someone who you do in fact 'get', with online sites in particular if you do find a profile, see what she says about herself, and think "Wow, this girls really cool - I like her attitude and adjustment to things a lot", try to date someone who you could admire on that level and it'll be that much easier. When you do go out though don't make it feel like you *need* a girlfriend (I doubt you do but just saying) but rather act as an equal, act like your going out just to test the waters, and act like your both there to have fun - no one's under any future obligation and act in ways to where she knows that if she's not interested that you'd just be able to shake hands with her and move on without a hitch.

maybe one of you should move to the other's state....

I don't think we're agreeing on the definition of "false advertising". If I don't put down both the positive and the negative, I'm not giving a complete picture of myself. I feel that if I'm not upfront with those types of things, I'm trying to manipulate her into starting a relationship, and when she does eventually find out about some of those, it would just end the relationship anyway...


I didn't mean to imply that abandoning life was your idea... it's just that I may have sounded like I was on the verge of doing so... so I just stated that regardless of my practically 0% chance of ever finding a girlfriend, it's not grounds to abandon the rest of my life that still functions...

This is the point I actually work better in group situations... with other people around so that I don't have to constantly be conversing, I have more time to observe the situation...

I've always found it easier to relate to women I already know. I pretty much can't be attracted to a stranger, no matter how attractive she may be... On the other hand, I've been known to develop attractions to women over time as I got to know them. Unfortunately, in all cases, by the time I become attracted, I'm relegated to the friend zone, further lowering the chance of anything meaningful happening...

The whole dating strangers thing also gives me pause... How am I supposed to plan a date with a woman who i have no idea what her interests are? I would feel like s**t if I were to take out a woman to a nice steakhouse, only to find out she was a vegetarian... I would be more than willing to maintain a relationship with a vegetarian (as long as she respects my choice to eat meat, I would respect her choice not to), but if I pulled that it would be nothing but absolute failure on my part... There's innumerable issues like that one such that I cannot possibly plan for all of them...


How am I supposed to show a woman I get her if I don't actually get her?


I kind of want to stay away from dating sites... to me they have the same issue that bars do: the process of dating someone who is, effectively, a stranger... As I said above, I want to know more about her before I actually date her, and dating sites don't really give me the opportunity to get to know her before I have to start planning dates... This issue doesn't extend to forums like this one, since I've effectively gotten to know the posters here over time, but is specifically referring to the places where you post and/or browse profiles, and send romantic messages to people you've never talked to before in your life...


Well in general I tend to treat women, even those I'm attracted to, as a friend (as opposed to lover), since everytime I try to make any form of romantic overture, I tense up and can't deliver...

Last edited by ToadOfSteel on 01 Mar 2009, 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

Unfortunately, there's no such thing as a single aspie lady in NJ... at least in my age group, anyway...

Single aspie ladies in NJ, feel free to correct me by sending a PM...

That's exactly it though - people aren't supposed to talk about their negatives up front, same with job interviews. It sounds really bad but your concern here, the one that I always had as well, I'm finding out that the answer is pretty easy - when they do have the chance to see or hear about the negative you have to hint, and I mean this, hint - subtely, without words but just by the context of how you handle the date - they need to know that you aren't trying to snare or entrap them and if they see anything - anything - that they don't like, that you yourself would much rather they leave (in an altruistic sense rather than bitter) because you'd rather they be with someone they like and you'd much rather that outcome as well, singlehood is much better than a bad relationship. Otherwise though, stating your negatives off the top is usually destructive - I had learned a way to tell people (NT's particularly) about my AS but it takes extreme caution and a very careful set of contexts, as in it absolutely has to be passed off as a minor side-detail about yourself that has no effect on how they're supposed to see or treat you; in that case they'll have it in the back of their minds and yes, when they see your mannerisms not fully in sync they'll at least have an answer for why rather than asking themselves 50 questions and having to fill in the blanks themselves.

Does that help a bit?




Right, and that's what you have to continue at - no easy answer in this arena unfortunately. For a long time you may have no response from the opposite sex worthwhile, and then when your almost looking up and laughing like "Now God?...rofl....gee thanks....", that's just life.



Dinner or coffee dates can be a bit tough. On the other hand I think practice and breaking yourself in to the situation goes a long way. Group dates right off the start, probably not a good idea. Maybe by the fourth or fifth date but I think in the beginning you have to establish a feeling of 'us' with a woman - then friends can start being introduced once you see yourselves more as a unit.



That's probably why talking online first helps. I had a date with a girl yesterday that seriously I was amazed, 75% of the time that she spoke I wanted to high-five her. *That's* what your looking for though and quite often you can get a sense of that from online communication as well - if they seem real awesome when your texting back and forth odds are it won't be far from the truth IRL.



I've never done that myself and I won't. Same with going downtown to the clubs, seeing all kinds of attractive women - does nothing for me partly because the atmosphere seems to color everyone in the same sort of light mentality-wise, even if there was someone who be way into me and me into her if I met her in that situation, if I approached her it probably wouldn't work whereas somewhere that *seems* more honest it would. Its all about finding what fits you.




You don't. In that situation you say to yourself "Next.....".




Actually I've found them (well the one I'm on at least) to be an excellent resource but at the same time what being in an online dating scene means is that you have to know what you want to make it work. When you request contact it has to be because your looking at a girl's profile and she says a lot of things and has a lot of interests that you can really relate to and on top of that she reminds you of girls you've known in the past who took well to you. If you can't decide - kick back and if they contact you by all means talk to them but also figure out what questions you want to ask them in order to figure out who they are, you can do it but it takes a lot of soul searching on who you are, how you relate to other people, and also thinking very carefully about what they say about themselves to ask the best questions as well as understanding what their answers mean to you.




Luckily the right women for us are those who are really about the emotional and personality bond first, if they feel like they can really relate to you and vice a versa, all you need to do is just have a good time with them, adhere to some of the usual customs (picking them up on a date, if you buy the first dinner and they give you a funny look like your too old-fashion offer that she can get pick up the next round or rent the movies for later that night - these days you have to run a very careful parallel between old-fashioned customes and making sure that you don't have them *too* gender sexualized in your head as much as just another human being who you see a lot of potential with).

Yes, its kind of ugly, kind of complicated, but don't feel bad - NT's can't do it right either; look at the divorce rate . The most important advice I can give you is when I say be true to yourself, try to be your best self at all times and yes, incorporate whatever knowledge you can and embrace change if that knowledge offers yuo a new paradigm of thought that you'd prefer. On the other hand, don't compromise too much to be with someone, that's when real sh**ty relationships happen and its one really big benefit we have over a lot of NT's - our sex drives don't rule our heads so much and that means that we can do a much better at sitting back and shopping around well if we play our cards right.

I think they key problem you are experiencing is with this aspect:

NT people date strangers.

It may take you a long time to get to know someone enough to relax in their presence and then develop an attraction. For them, that process was done in the first few days. If you don't do anything in those first few days to encourage any potential attraction, they will shelve it and turn you into a friend. Usually this is an unconscious process for them, and usually once a friend always a friend.

If you want to date in the NT world then you have to do it by their rules. That is, dates are between people who are pretty much strangers. You will make mistakes, you will get hurt on occasion, and you will have moments where you beat yourself up about things that you missed but should have acted upon. The point is that you cannot wait until it falls into your lap, if this is what you want then you will have to put effort into it. You need to meet new people, and you need to be prepared to go on dates with those new people.

Usually the first few dates are when people get to know each other. you are not expected to know everything about the other person before the first date.

You come across as a very conscientious person:



There is nothing wrong with going to the wrong restaurant. It is not your job to be perfect. It is your job to be you as far as you can. If the relationship breaks down because you went for chinese and she prefers Indian then, frankly, it was never going anywhere to start with (everywhere has veggie options).

It is important to realise that it is unlikely to work out the first time, and that if it doesn't that is not your responsibility or failure. You just have to try again.

Edit - as the previous post suggests, if you feel you need to know more about a person before going on an actual date then the online option is brilliant.

Anyway, hopefully you find that useful.

Well, the idea makes sense, but the point I'm trying to make is based on some observations I've made: relationships tend to fall apart when previously-hidden negative qualities surface. By making no effort to "hide" negative traits, they can't then surface after the relationship starts, so if a woman overlooks the issues I am upfront about, I'm set... At least, that's the "rationalization" behind the idea... I guess I just don't like to hide things...




I didn't necessarily mean group *dates*... I was relating to my personal experiences in love (limited as they may be)... Everytime I've become attracted to a woman, it was after being involved in some other activity not related to romance or dating for some time (around a month on average)... it's happened while working on musical theater productions, at my church (back when I was in high school and people my age were around, anyway), and other places like that...


On the other hand, I just can't talk to women with the explicit intention to explore romantic possibilities without knowing her in some other fashion first. Maybe it's because I see a romantic relationship as nothing but a more intimate stage of friendship (and by "friendship", I'm talking about my much deeper definition of friend, not the stupid definition the rest of the world uses), but to be honest I don't really know why...


Well, working up from a friendship seems the most natural to me (yes, I know, it's completely unnatural to everyone else, but I'm saying what fits my particular nature here...)


And what if you don't have the luxury of being able to spam the "Next" button?


I can't just make a determination based on a list of traits or a paragraph... I need to actually be around her for some time in order to get an idea of if I'm attracted or not...


1) do women even make any effort to contact men? In my experience, I've had to do all the initiating when trying to talk to a woman...

2) I would still have the same problem as before... I just simply can't make a determination based on a bunch of questions either. Again, like I said, I need to be around her for a while to make such a determination...


I'm still trying to complete step 1... you're about 6 steps ahead of me on that one...


Or sitting back and watching everyone else get taken while I'm still alone because I can't play said cards at all...

Ya, you are! I think that finding love is a waiting/timing game more than anything else. You are not one of a kind: There is a female out there who is like you in all the right ways to be perfectly or almost-perfectly compatible with you, genetic odds indictate. There is an expression, "Everyone has a double somewhere in this world", which refers to someone of the same gender who looks almost exactly like you. Well, if that's true (and I believe it is), then isn't it also likely that each person has a optimumly compatible mate somewhere out there?

That's why you try to prescreen on that a bit - ie. at least get a first date but try to figure out what kind of girl your dealing with, how much she likes you, and whether or not she has a personality type to where it will be a big problem or where it won't. The idea is really to yes, do what you said and work preventative medicine but do so by how you pick and chose.



People have extremely fixed contexts though, as in I was surprised at how many of the girls I dated I couldn't imagine actually just hitting it off as a friend or coworker - that could be a bad thing and yes, it may be a sign that I want to keep moving, but at the same time they were *willing* to give it a try regardless. I think when they start from a position of seeing your interaction in a certain context they tend to stay there - romantic, friends, etc. zones don't cross well and I think its really some kind of inherent cognitive dissonance issue.



Your thinking like I had for a long time, new information's come in and I'm starting to really wonder what the heck is going on - mainly my observations above.



May well be that not having AS they're more readily able to trade what does work for what they wish would work. Its not easy so no, your not a sucker for thinking this way at all - its just a really gross and gnarly world riddled with all kind of incorrigible logical inconsistency - everyone hates it I think but I think they agree that mind and nature are like oil and water.



Then your only option is to create the luxury to spam the "next" button. If you only like one girl that you meet every few years - this happened to me as long as I can remember - it won't work with her because you'll be too interested and that also means that even if you try to be pimp and play it cool you'll be too reticent with it, if you let her know how you feel it'll be too much - *everything* will be set to go wrong, whereas if you have half a dozen other options you won't go through hysteria and self-depricating, self loathing, etc. over one person. Again, I hate this but it seems like a constant - if you have all your eggs in one basket your shot and you have to be just as ready to shrug and say "next" on someone who you think is perfect for you as someone who you could care less about, otherwise your set for failure. As for the dreaded feeling of accountability when you blow a situation with someone who feels like 'the one' - you have to make yourself remember, this isn't that kind of world and the whole system is set to f' anyone who lets that kind of romanticism take control of the steering wheel.




What you can gauge at least is chemistry of personality, and afterall that tends to be the most important thing - after that you have about a 2 in 5 chance of meeting a girl and finding that you could also have physical attraction to go along with it, the personality chemistry for us though is much more the decider.



It depends on what kind of guy you are, how well you explain what kind of guy you are, and what kind of woman we're talking about. I have actually gotten a lot of contact and its mostly been sincerity and honesty, girls who want that and see it in a guy will go against their usual nature and contact a guy - also I think having that trait and already having a non-judgmental tone lowers usual inhibitions a bit. Really not faking it though, just lucky I guess that I've found the right venue and the right way of explaining myself.



You don't, you use those questions and following emails to see if you'd want to go on a date. A date might have a follow up, may not, you may call it off, she may call it off, you both may be equally feeling or not feeling eachother - there's not obligation aside from probing chemistry.



This isn't even fun - its stressful. That and I still have plenty of times, as before, where I have the double wack of meeting people who'd be great for me.....if I didn't have AS...hurts like hell to let those go and yes, its a definite existential burn that slams this condition in my face.

I can't lie though - its not going to be easy for you, its not going to be easy for me, its not going to be easy for most guys here unless they have the right feng shue to their AS where it doesn't have a superficially negative effect or they seem overconfident rather than reserved. You can beat on your chest and go "Why God!? Why?" - after a second you have to let it go, say what is - is, and work with it from there.

In all honesty as well, I really feel for ya because you sound a hell of a lot like me. I'm really telling you though - don't give up, not on yourself, not on this either. Most importantly though particularly when doing things like this when you feel like your jumping into the lions den, its less a feeling of artificiality and desperation and more a feeling like the hero at the end of a movie who in a fit of serenity makes a sublime and self-sacrificing maneuver - its not quite *that* bad but its one of those where your forced to give in to life for what it is and it takes readjusting what you've always held to be right in terms of how you think things should work with other people. If anything, for the very fact that you feel like an outsider you can expect things that intuitively make no sense to you to work and things that intuitively should work not to work - not always but still, you will see a lot of strange things happening in life over time.

I'm going to try and group similar points together... it feels like I'm repeating stuff too much...

Can you explain to me why NT's have this weird notion that the dating phase and the "getting to know you" phase are practically the same? To me, dating is something to do after I've gotten to know someone, since then I at least have an idea of what she would enjoy and can plan accordingly...

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Well, I've been able to get past the point of being obsessed over one woman that I rarely see, but now I rarely see *any* women around... at least of those my age... and since women my age seem to only exist in clubs and other similar places that are too overwhelming for me, that kind of limits my range, hence the lack of luxury to spam the "next" button...

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Well, thanks for the sentiments... I just don't think I can abandon who I am... Sure I can make compromises, and at the very least come to some sort of agreement on things I may have differing opinions about. But to change my core being would be akin to destroying me as a person, and I don't want to do that...