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nothingunusual
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27 Feb 2009, 4:07 pm

Attorneys for Michael John Anderson argued Thursday (Feb. 26) that he would be denied due process in his first-degree murder trial if the jury was not allowed to hear information about Asperger’s syndrome.

The trial is set to start March 16, with jury selection taking a week and opening arguments set for March 23.

Anderson, 20, of Savage, is accused of killing Katherine Ann Olson, 24, of Cottage Grove in his parents’ home at 12649 Kipling Ave. in October 2007. Police say Anderson used a fake Craigslist ad to lure Olson to the home and subsequently shot her in the back. He then put her body in the trunk of her car and drove it to the nearby Rudy Kraemer Park Preserve and also disposed of her purse and broken cell phone, plus a bloody towel with his name written on it to cover up the crime.

Defense attorney Alan Margoles said in an omnibus hearing in November 2008 that Anderson has been diagnosed with Asperger’s syndrome and was “laboring under it” so that he “didn’t know the nature of his actions or that they were wrong.”

In his arguments this week to allow the introduction of information into Anderson’s trial about Asperger’s, Margoles maintained the average person is not familiar with the developmental disorder, which is a form of autism. “It is pervasive and difficult to comprehend,” Margoles argued, and does not fall within a legal definition of diminished mental capacity as allowed for in Minnesota law.

Margoles likened Anderson’s mental capacity to that of Mr. Spock in Star Trek.

He said Mr. Spock had analytical reasoning, but no emotion. “He operated on pure logic. He had no sympathy, no empathy, no regret, no remorse. He was civil, but not kind. He was cold, but not bad or evil. He thought differently than others on the ship.”

Anderson is much the same as Mr. Spock; except that his condition is not voluntary, it is genetic, Margoles continued. “But the difference is that Mr. Spock knew of his reliance on logic and that he was different from the others,” he said. “Mr. Anderson does not know that.”

Not guilty

Before making his arguments to Judge Mary T. Theisen about Asperger’s syndrome, Margoles informed the court that Anderson was withdrawing a motion to allow for a mental illness defense. And he was pleading not guilty to the charges against him – first-degree and second-degree murder.

Margoles also stipulated to the court that Anderson was the only person involved in the case. What’s more, Anderson held the gun that killed Olson when it went off, but due to physical-coordination issues associated with his Asperger’s syndrome, her death may have been accidental.

The judge requested Anderson agree to the stipulations for the record, so Margoles sat down and asked his client if he wanted to drop the mental illness defense; if he held the gun when it went off and when Olson was shot and killed; and if he agreed to wave his right to challenge that someone else shot Olson.

Anderson solemnly answered “yes” to each question.

Those not hearing his answers in the courtroom were members of either the Anderson or Olson families; both families were absent from the pre-trial hearing.

Before this week’s pre-trial hearing, both the prosecutors and defense presented written arguments to the court about Anderson’s Asperger’s diagnosis and the mental illness defense.

http://www.chaskaherald.com/news/courts ... -trial-102

A jury should know that mild autism is responsible for a murder suspect's apparent lack of remorse for killing a woman who responded to his online ad for a babysitter, his lawyer argued Thursday in Scott County court.

Defense attorney Alan Margoles stopped short of saying that Michael John Anderson's Asperger's Syndrome was responsible for his decision to shoot Katherine Ann Olson in October 2007. But it is the cause of his demeanor and apparent lack of remorse, including a statement made to police shortly after his arrest that he thought the killing "would be funny," Margoles said. If that evidence is not presented to a jury, Anderson will be denied his due process rights, Margoles said.

Scott County prosecutors said the defense should not be allowed to make assertions about Anderson's mental state during his upcoming trial. Under Minnesota law, determinations about mental state can only be made in a separate trial following a conviction.

Anderson looked on as Margoles compared him to Mr. Spock, the iconic character from the "Star Trek" films and television series.

"While Captain Kirk had the full gamut of human emotions, Mr. Spock had none," Margoles said. "He operated purely on logic. No sympathy, no empathy. Regret, but no remorse. Mr. Spock was civil, but not kind. Thoughtful and distant but not cold. He thought differently than others on the ship, but he did not have diminished capacity."

According to Mayo Clinic, Asperger's Syndrome, also known as Asperger's Disorder, is classified as a mild form of autism characterized by obsessions with complex topics, odd mannerisms, and problems with social skills and communication.

Whether Anderson has Asperger's is in dispute. A doctor hired by the defense diagnosed him as having Asperger's. Two doctors for the prosecution said he does not.

District Court Judge Mary Theisen is expected to rule on the motion before jury selection begins March 16 in Anderson's first-degree murder trial.

Anderson, 20, allegedly lured Olson, 24, to his home in Savage on Oct. 25, 2007, by posing on Craigslist as a woman needing a babysitter. When Olson answered the ad, he shot her in the back before hiding her body in the trunk of her car, which was found parked in a Burnsville park.

After his arrest, Anderson made statements to police including, "I thought it would be funny" and "I didn't kill her, the bullet did."

During the hearing Thursday to address several motions before the trial, Margoles withdrew a motion for a mental illness defense and entered a plea of not guilty. In entering the plea, Margoles acknowledged that Anderson held the gun when it went off, killing Olson, but would not say it was intentional.

He argued that Asperger's was directly related to the accidental firing of the weapon, because those with the disorder are often physically clumsy. It also affected Anderson's demeanor afterward and in court, he said.

Scott County prosecutors contended at the hearing that Asperger's is considered a diminished capacity defense, meaning that though a defendant is not insane, the person could not fully comprehend the nature of his or her act.

Assistant County Attorney Michael Groh argued that not only does Anderson not have Asperger's but that the defense is simply trying to skirt the law through giving diminished capacity another name.

"It goes to the very nature of diminished capacity, i.e., 'I didn't know what I was doing, I didn't know it was wrong,'" Groh said. "It's a diminished capacity definition no matter which way they want to talk about it. You're insane or you're sane, there's no in between. And anything like that allowed in this court would be contrary to Minnesota precedent."

Margoles countered the prosecution's argument by saying that those with Asperger's are not of diminished capacity, and are of average or higher intelligence. Instead, he said, Anderson was of "different capacity."

Judge Theisen did not yet rule on the motion, but expressed doubts about Margoles' argument as a whole. She mulled aloud whether the portion of the argument that physical symptoms caused Anderson to accidentally pull the trigger could be admissible.

"You can be sure I'm not going to act contrary to Minnesota statutes, but where I'm having that question is where that line is drawn -- where is the line between diminished capacity and this testimony, especially as it pertains to physical ability?" she said.


http://www.startribune.com/40399472.htm ... DEh7P:DiUs


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BlackjackGabbiani
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28 Feb 2009, 2:52 am

So they're trying to claim that this guy killed someone because he's too LOGICAL?

*headdesk*

I sure hope, if that's allowed, that the prosecution will bring in some autism experts of their own to remind people that that s**t don't fly.



kittenmeow
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28 Feb 2009, 5:53 am

I think the psychiatrist should look up sociopath.

After his arrest, Anderson made statements to police including, "I thought it would be funny" and "I didn't kill her, the bullet did."

yeah...right. I'm also tired of these news stories trying to portray autism as sociopath.

Psychiatrists in defense trials lose credibility when they can't properly diagnose and determine difference between sociopath and someone with aspergers.

There are several logical serial killers like the BTK killer who spoke without emotion but loved to torture, harrass, stalk, abuse his positions. I wonder if he too would be considered someone with aspergers when clearly he's sociopath.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ7BwKOA_7Q[/youtube]

Alright. Dennis Radar. Psychopath.


This guy who found it funny to murder and sought out to murder someone is most likely a psychopath.

So how many people are going to get diagnosed with aspergers but really are psychopaths?



Katie_WPG
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28 Feb 2009, 9:17 am

My guess is that while being a psycho/sociopath is still seen as a matter of choice, Asperger's isn't. That's why defense psychiatrists would turn to it first, rather than psychopathy. Or they could try for schizophrenia. Or DID. Or MR. Whatever they can make the best argument for.

But yeah, "Mr. Spock" my ass. Saying "I killed her because it was funny" is the answer that a not-too-bright sadist/sociopath would give, not someone with AS.

At least two prosecution-appointed psychiatrists said that he doesn't have it.

But really, I think that diagnosises shouldn't count unless they were diagnosed prior to their crime. Anything else is just grasping for excuses.



t0
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28 Feb 2009, 1:34 pm

BlackjackGabbiani wrote:
So they're trying to claim that this guy killed someone because he's too LOGICAL?


The article made it seem like they're going to claim the killing was accidental. Caused by poor coordination casued by AS. The defense will probably claim he was just trying to scare the victim (to be funny) or something along those lines.

I'm not sure where he's going with the Spock comparison. He's probably trying to get that information into testimony to give the jury a different reason for his client's coldness and lack of caring. Maybe he can use the information to argue against part of the 1st degree murder statute to get his client a reduced sentence.



omgkeke
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01 Mar 2009, 8:13 pm

Look, obviously this guy is using his AS as the blame so he could get away with a murder that he strategically planned to do.

That's not the AS, that's definitely something else, or he's just a psycho.



BlackjackGabbiani
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01 Mar 2009, 9:05 pm

You know, it's possible for someone to be autistic *and* a sociopath or psychopath or any other sort of compounded things. Yes, trying to pin the blame is wrong, but just being autistic doesn't mean you can't possibly have anything else.



kittenmeow
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02 Mar 2009, 10:06 am

BlackjackGabbiani wrote:
You know, it's possible for someone to be autistic *and* a sociopath or psychopath or any other sort of compounded things. Yes, trying to pin the blame is wrong, but just being autistic doesn't mean you can't possibly have anything else.


This article states "autism played role in killing"

I disagree. Is it really possible for a sociopath to be autistic? Have any evidence that supports that claim?

Let's compare. If a sociopath was diagnosed with autism and then diagnosed as sociopath, I don't think it makes the person both but misdiagnosed. Psychiatry isn't flawless.

Sociopath-

Manipulative, charming, socially puts on a performance that makes them well liked, disregard for rules and laws, goes against society.

The sociopath can read people really well to aid in their manipulation tactics and can fool most people around them into thinking they are great people. Feigns empathy and loyalty to fool others. Laughs at others jokes even if they aren't funny to keep up with likable persona.

Repeated acts that could lead to arrest, sometimes harm animals as children on purpose, rationalizing the pain they inflict on others often twisting it around as though it was the victim's fault or they were doing it for a good cause, impulsive.

Highly superficial to hide behind a mask.

If the sociopath murders, gets caught will reveal their cold nature or in cases like Ted Bundy who was caught but police didn't believe he did it because they were looking for someone who wasn't as charasmatic will try to manipulate and trick others into believing he's innocent.


Autistic-

Not good at passing for "normal", feels no need to socially manipulate others to get what they want, feels remorse and guilt if done something wrong, doesn't put on a show and if attempts doesn't often work.

People with autism generally follow rules and are often very rigid when it comes to the rules. Sometimes will go overboard to make sure all rules are followed.

Not overly into their own superficiality.

When those higher up on the autistic spectrum get better at social skills or IF, don't really fabricate persona's to manipulate and charm others but use their skills more like a coping mechanism to get by.

Someone with autism may not always pick up on jokes. May laugh if it was determined something was a joke afterwards, may not laugh at all if the person with autism knew it was a joke but didn't find it funny. May laugh because the person with autism has learned about jokes and really did find it funny.



If you are a sociopath, you are a sociopath. If you are autistic, you are autistic.

When people try to state otherwise or blur the lines and skew up definitions, it's usually because of misinformation or to suit their own self serving agenda.

If you were diagnosed as being a sociopath then later diagnosed with autism, one of them is wrong. It doesn't mean you are both.



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05 Mar 2009, 5:23 am

Of course it's possible his autism had a role in the killing.

An NT might feel shame, fear or any other mixture of emotions while planning out the murder. He could claim he felt nothing. Autism is different than sociopathy, alexithymia vs. apathy, but the end result in situations such as these can be the same.

This shouldn't be seen as an insult to being autistic, or a statement that claims autism = cold blooded killer. How many NT's in court claim "uncontrollable rage" was a factor in their crime? I don't see forums claiming emotions had no part in their crimes. Stop taking things so personally :wink:

For the record, i think he should get the maximum punishment for what he's done.



kittenmeow
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05 Mar 2009, 1:27 pm

yeah but realistically if you know anything about how sociopaths are, he fits sociopath. There is no evidence that suggests anything else in this article.

Gets a female from craigslist to come over.
Kills her.
Laughs about it and thought it would be funny.

Of course it's possible his autism had role in the killing? They haven't even really established he has autism. If you know anything about psychopaths you would read that article, pick out the clues and know better.

If you knew about autism, you would see there isn't anything in the article that suggests autism unless you're one of these people that thinks those on the autistic spectrum feel nothing, have no empathy because that's what the books say. It's false. Yet another stereotype.

I don't see much empathy in NT's honestly. If anything, I get impression that it's just a social thing to do. No real empathy felt unless someone really has been in a similar situation. "Oh I feel your pain......" No you don't!



Michjo
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05 Mar 2009, 11:07 pm

Quote:
yeah but realistically if you know anything about how sociopaths are, he fits sociopath. There is no evidence that suggests anything else in this article.


You're assuming the article is objective, factual, unbiased and wrote by someone who understands both sociopathy and autism. The reason for having this part of the forum is because the media is subjective, infactual, biased and wrote by people who read up on their topics for a maximum of 5 minutes.

Quote:
They haven't even really established he has autism. If you know anything about psychopaths you would read that article, pick out the clues and know better.


So you "know" he is sociopathic? You've interveiwed him yourself and taken scans, to rule out mood disorders, schizophrenia, possible brain damage and/or brain tumours? You can't diagnose people based on a small piece of text, wrote by a "more-than-likely" incompetant author.

Quote:
If you knew about autism


I'm a medium functioning autie

Quote:
you're one of these people that thinks those on the autistic spectrum feel nothing, have no empathy because that's what the books say. It's false. Yet another stereotype.


Empathy is defined as picking up on people's body language, facial expressions, understanding how they might personally feel and then having appropriate feelings in response. It would be fair to say that we lack empathy to varying degrees. I think you were looking for the word compassion. ~85% of people on the spectrum have alexithymia to varying degrees as well, which is an inability to know how you feel.

The fact is, there are hundreds of possible reasons (assuming he is in fact autistic) of how his autism could have played a role in his crime. It's mostly a moot point however, the jury will see he planned the murder, they will see that he is dangerous and should be locked up. And rather more ironically, if they believe he is autistic, they'll probably give him a longer sentence with the belief that he isn't going to change.



kittenmeow
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06 Mar 2009, 2:30 am

There is nothing in this article that points out autistic traits. I was merely stating my opinion that at least from what the article described it comes across more as sociopath than autistic.

Also just noticed you have 4 posts.

It's an opinion. I have every right to one.



Michjo
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06 Mar 2009, 3:05 am

Quote:
If you knew about autism...


Quote:
If you know anything about psychopaths...


Maybe it's just the usual way you express your opinion. But these statements suggest the other person is uneducated, which made me assume i had to explain my position.

I meant no dis-respect with my replies. You're fully entitled to have any belief you wish.



kittenmeow
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07 Mar 2009, 8:59 am
07 Mar 2009, 3:49 pm

How hard is it to understand "Kill someone, you go to jail."

I understood that at age ten so I knew to never kill anyone or I go to jail. It's black and white. But then I learned the gray area, it's okay to kill if they are trying to kill you. It's self defense.



ForgottenDarkness
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07 Mar 2009, 4:00 pm

AUTISM SHOULD NOT BE USED AS AN EXCUSE... even people with LFA are able to form the mens rea for a crime.

Maybe if he was in such a state that he had non-insane automatism than in that case it would be acceptable.
But this should be clear cut, like all murders... Take a life, pay the toll.

The person who decapitated another on a greyhound bus said he heard a "voice from god" and he was
found not mentally stable enough to understand killings are wrong.

BUT THIS IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE! by the age of 18 or even earlier, should know that murder is a crime
and to take a life is an offense.