Instead of closing in on yourself...

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You just admitted, though, that people (at least adult men) are only allowed to make such mistakes within limits.

Orbyss:
I never said you had to forcefully kiss anybody. I'd be furious as well.

The kiss was, as I previously mentioned, an example. I didn't mean you should go ahead and try and kiss everybody that smile in your general direction. Wage the situation a little better (Which by the way is perfectly possible if you gain enough experience - It's not like you are unable to learn what certain mimicry or gesticulations usually mean).


Hector:
Try "accidentally" touching her/his hand. If you receive/perceive no reaction, wait a minute and try again. Contact can be powerful. If nothing ever happens, consider the person as not interested...

EDIT: ...and move on.

Last edited by Kenjuudo on 16 Mar 2009, 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Actually, I expect people to constantly make mistakes. If you mean to point out what I said about attacking men who kiss people at random, then, yes, those are limits that will potentially get them hurt. A breach of space like that, especially with unwanted sexual advances occur, there aren't quite limits but disasters should be expected. It's one hard lesson to learn, I'm sure.

Other than that, I can't imagine what limits you mean. There are no limits to mistakes, as I've learned.



Right, but as I've learned on here, it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, for many with AS to gauge social situations, so suggesting this could cause problems. I personally think that people with AS need to be themselves, and communicate with the clarity they need. Doing the opposite causes far more confusion and problems, I have no doubt.

A good example is the hand touching thing. It's worth trying a couple times, but if the reaction is consistently bad, it's probably best to resort to plain old honesty. "Hey...I really want to be physically intimate right now, but I have a hard time doing that." A worthwhile date who is a good match will understand more than one who is not, and that is probably the best thing. Otherwise, I firmly believe it's just prolonging the inevitable by not being honest.

Last edited by Orbyss on 16 Mar 2009, 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Touching women I like on the hand, the arm or the shoulder is something I've been encouraged to do quite regularly, though notably on the internet from people in other countries. I'm wary about doing this because I've never seen anyone do it who was not already very close with the other person (generally platonic best friends or lovers), and am not sure how comfortable I'd feel being touched on the arm or shoulder myself.

My fear is that people are less touch-friendly here in Ireland than they are in the countries that the people who've given me this advice have posted from (most often the US). There may be cultural differences in this respect. Certainly the Brazilians I've known are touchy-feely with basically everyone they enjoy the company of, in great contrast to the Irish.

What gets overlooked is that this is also massively a NT problem as well. There are entire training courses and Seduction groups/clubs/classes geared towards helping normal, everyday guys get over their fears of women. If you ever read some of the literature out there about the seduction movement, you'll see a lot of stories from guys who may or may not be NT or Aspie or whatever who have just as much loneliness and lack of women in their lives.

The first thing the seduction trainers do is force you to get rejected, and not just once -- they make you approach something like 20 women over the night. They even turn it into a game -- who can get rejected the most for the night? The whole joke of it is that by the time the guys reach number 15 or so, they actually start getting yesses instead of no's, and they realize rejection is a paper tiger.

I think the point the OP is making isn't that you should just randomly sexually assault or force yourself on women you like (like he said, he was exaggerating to make a point) but that closing yourself off ruins any chances you had for good. Probability of success just went down to 0% from where-ever it was, and know now that even for the best of us, it's not usually any higher than 10% even in the best of circumstances.

Orbis: I agree that clarity might be the best way to go. But in some situations (other people present maybe? or you don't dare because you don't want to ruin everything by being too talkative?) - Try the contact thing. Don't just grab her breasts/his scrotum. Make it subtle. If he/she is resting a hand on the chair next to you, place your hand next to it so that they touch. It's electrifying, exciting and make your hearth go faster. You may even get a positive response. Also, you have a perfectly valid fallback line if the response is negative: "Huh? Oh, Sorry. I didn't notice..."

Problem is, at least here in the US/Mexico, touch is a common thing amongst the normal population who aren't interested in each other sexually. I've gotten hugs, pats and touches from total strangers I've talked to. It can be pleasant, unless they're already sort of creepy in some way (I don't mean the clumsiness of AS, here, I mean something is possibly malign about them).

I find I usually start to get suspicious of AS in those who stand in awkward positions and don't reach out to others. Nothing wrong with that, but sometimes I make the first move. Now I'm going to wonder if I'm going to give the wrong impression.

My point is, here, that it's more complex than that, even, which is why honesty is the best policy for people with AS, I believe.

Wow - I didn't even consider that we might be talking about a situation on a date. In that case, then I suppose one might consider that there already is a certain level of interest on both parts.

I was thinking more along the lines of how to determine whether there was enough interest to even SUGGEST a date. That's where I have never been able to figure things out. (So far, my instincts have always been wrong. The last time I was on a date was in college & the girl had to ask me out - but then we were together for two years.)

@Hector - I'm going to have to agree with you on the casual touching. In my part of the US, it really isn't something I've observed in people who weren't already either in a relationship, or at least really good friends. Not to mention that I personally don't like to be touched without advance warning, so I'd be extremely uncomfortable doing it to someone else without first asking if they would mind me doing so.

Right, getting to the date part is hard. I still think it takes honesty to get someone who'll potentially click with you, rather than putting on an artificial act and leading the whole thing on. As far as how touching is related to that, I still think it's ambiguous. Putting your arm around someone is far more obviously intimate than, say, touching someone's hand.

Odd you say that the part of the US you're in doesn't show a lot of touchy-feely behaviour. I was born and raised just outside of Minneapolis, my family have lived there for couple generations, same with my friends, and we're all touchy-feely. Is it maybe the people with whom you associate, or that you're a man? I know my girl friends and I are all very physical, but I've noticed a rift between men and women there in that regard, but not entirely with touching. It's just that a lot of men there seem more 'stoic,' held back. That doesn't apply to all, though.

I'm not sure what you mean by "honesty". I can imagine two levels of being completely honest. The first is not telling lies, which I can usually get by doing fine. The second is letting people know exactly what you feel about them when you feel it without hesitation, which is not only not me but not anyone I believe I would associate with.

zeichner: That is why you make it out to be accidental. Throw the ball over in her court. Let the woman in question decide if you are making advances on her or not. Always try to throw the ball back.
---
[She notices your touch]
"Sorry. I had an itch on this finger and it was killing me. Say, you don't happen to have some handlotion or anything?"
---
Notice how the touch can break the ice no matter how it went? Much easier to chat now. But do it by again and again throwing questions at her! Never talk about yourself unless she asks for it! And if she does, keep it short! Make a joke! -"Yeah, just after they sewed my arm back on they noticed the scissors were missing. And now I can't even take the plane without getting cavity searches by the customs." (Sure, make your own jokes. Not everybody are as morbid as I am...)



Orbyss: Yes, talking is good. Too much talking (especially moaning about your problems) is not so good.



Hector: Don't talk excessively about your problems. Excessively means everything beyond exactly what she asked for.

Well, it's hard to explain, and it's probably a bit idealistic, but when it comes to Aspies, I think it's the best move all around. I feel what I see on these forums is the result of trying too hard for something that isn't true.

My own personal concept of honesty is basically what you said, however. Honesty is the opposite of lies, and much of what people learn to do socially is lies. It's necessary in some cases, which is very unfortunate, but there's a difference between dealing with people on the street and dealing with finding a long term relationship, and that's what I'm talking about here. Honesty is the opposite of any sort of deceit, but this is separate from understanding the cadence of conversation, as well as empathy, both of which can be lacking with AS.

I think that if any pretenses are put up at the get-go, there's a possibility of greater let-down in the end. But if there's honesty, it may not even get that far to begin with. Of course, this means that the person partaking in it isn't just trying to get laid, but is looking for something more meaningful, a lasting partnership that has to work with honesty, anyway. Most relationships don't bother with honesty, anyway, and most relationships fail, statistically.

So, even if a man with AS approach a woman and tell her, "I like your breasts and I'd like to touch them," believe it or not, this may go over surprisingly well, considering. Honesty isn't always the total death of anything. Personally, I'd rather a guy approach me and say that, even if it scares me, because it's painfully honest. I've had this happen, twice, actually. Both times I laughed it off and was honest back. I've seen similar with other women, as a matter of fact. It puts it out there, there's are no pretenses. In some case the man may get slapped or worse, but according to stories I've heard (oh Zegh, where are you???) this is pretty rare.

What if you were just to approached a woman and were just honest about what you liked, wanted and everything like that? It could be creepy to some women, but that's my point -- those aren't the women that are likely to understand you very well in a long term relationship. Are they? Chances are, no, I'm convinced. My own boyfriend asked me if I'd date him in such a bizarre way that I didn't realize he was asking. If he'd been up front about it, I'd've only said no because of one issue at the time. I don't think I'm that unusual, but if I see a guy who's honest and who clicks with me, I'm going to be intrigued.

Hell, after writing this I was flooded with memories of honest guys I've known, and how well they did. One of them was a self-proclaimed man-whore. It was pretty amazing where it got him, even if it did also get him in trouble. He suffered from ADHD and I'd say he even had some AS traits as well, even if he was social.

I also realize how hard it is, and what sort of level of self knowledge this sort of thing takes. I'm not chiding anyone for not being completely honest in their relationships, I'm just saying it may be worth a shot given what I know.

I've known guys who've been in relationships and were very forward with women (though they're in a minority), but one common thread with these guys is that they're socially capable and may see nuances that I don't. They appear to succeed by making a joke out of showing overt interest in the face of rejection, and as I've said before I don't recite jokes which I don't understand as a rule.

Right, but that's not you. That's what I mean. You put yourself out there in such a way that you could attract a woman who's understanding or fits well with you. It could take a long time, of course. It took until I was 25 until I found someone I was even interested in. Relationships don't have to happen right away, obviously, and for some people it takes a life time. That's why it's so important to not place such importance on just having 'someone' for yourself, and more importance on getting someone you can truly have a partnership with.

Back when I was much younger, I wanted to stay celibate. I figured, if it did happen, it would. It did, and I almost pine for the days when I didn't have one because of the work it takes. It's not all it's cracked up to be in popular media, that's for sure. It's having a best friend with whom you must communicate very well, and have intimacy. Stability is a hard thing to keep, as well as assurances. It's stressful, even when it's your best friend. I'd hate to see it if it were just two people trying for something because they feel they should. Ugh.

Well, that's just what I've been trying to do. I guess a difference between us is that I'm interested in much more people. Not just for the idea of having someone, but because I'm attracted to them and in at least a handful of cases thought (and still think) I had a lot in common with them and would be a "good match". The only thing was that, at least for the past few years, this does not appear to have been reciprocated.

As much as I appreciate your trying to help - I'm afraid this simply doesn't address my situation. First, the "accidental" touching (and the dialog that goes with it) appears deceptive & I'm a terrible liar. (We'll just ignore the fact that I don't like to make physical contact unless the other person is extremely well-known to me.)

The talking part isn't such a problem, since I don't like talking about myself to strangers - so I always keep my answers short & turn the question back on them. I rarely joke, unless I know the person really well, since it almost always backfires (strangers don't get my sense of humor & I end up having to explain little offhand comments.)

The best thing I have going for me is that I can handle myself really well in formal social situations (formal dinner parties, etc.), where everyone understands the same set of rules for social interaction. When I was in the Army, I was great at embassy functions, etc. Unfortunately, since I became a civilian (some 18 years ago), I haven't been invited to many formal dinners (just once in a while at work.)