If God has always existed and created the world.

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kxmode
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10 Apr 2009, 3:27 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
kxmode wrote:
This universe is merely an experiment in one of God's petre dishes. He has other experiments.

I'll let that sink in for a moment.


Every era has its concepts. God was originally a contentious despot. Now He's a scientist.


God forever geometrizes --- Plato.

ruveyn


Indeed. It seems reasonable to assume that if god created the universe, and time and space is part of the constituents that make up the universe, then it would be very easy for him to make another universe or a carbon copy of this one and experiment on it. Our knowledge of universe is so limited that even if we knew there was a lifeform in one of these parallel universes there's no way we would ever be able to communicate with them. I think god would prefer this. He doesn't want lifeforms mucking up his universes. It'll taint the results.


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Sand
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10 Apr 2009, 3:35 pm

kxmode wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
kxmode wrote:
This universe is merely an experiment in one of God's petre dishes. He has other experiments.

I'll let that sink in for a moment.


Every era has its concepts. God was originally a contentious despot. Now He's a scientist.


God forever geometrizes --- Plato.

ruveyn


Indeed. It seems reasonable to assume that if god created the universe, and time and space is part of the constituents that make up the universe, then it would be very easy for him to make another universe or a carbon copy of this one and experiment on it. Our knowledge of universe is so limited that even if we knew there was another lifeform in one of these parallel universes there's no way we would ever be able to communicate with them. I think god would prefer this. He doesn't want lifeforms mucking up other universes. It'll taint the results.


The mind of God, apparently, is an open book.



kxmode
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10 Apr 2009, 3:43 pm

Sand wrote:
The mind of God, apparently, is an open book.


Yeah. Just don't muck up his universes or else he'll get angry.


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and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.
The former things have passed away."


Henriksson
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10 Apr 2009, 4:21 pm

kxmode wrote:
This universe is merely an experiment in one of God's petre dishes. He has other experiments.

I'll let that sink in for a moment.

Wait, how is that any different from people thousands of years ago declaring that the Earth is flat and a couple generations old?

God of the holes, indeed...


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10 Apr 2009, 7:08 pm

God has just always been there and for anything to have existed something had to make it happen.


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techstepgenr8tion
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10 Apr 2009, 7:33 pm

He dj'd a smooth jazz channel up in heaven for a while that he got bored of playing soul-ly for himself.



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10 Apr 2009, 7:39 pm

I wonder of God himself excepts that may be something beyond the bounds of his universe the root universe maybe.



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10 Apr 2009, 7:42 pm

Henriksson wrote:
kxmode wrote:
This universe is merely an experiment in one of God's petre dishes. He has other experiments.

I'll let that sink in for a moment.

Wait, how is that any different from people thousands of years ago declaring that the Earth is flat and a couple generations old?


In 1919 a virtually unknown German mathematician named Theodor Kaluza suggested a very bold, and some ways, very bizarre idea. He proposed that our universe might actually have more than the three dimensions that we are all aware of. That is in addition to left, right, back, forth, and up, down Kaluza proposed that there might be additional dimensions of space, that for some reason we don't yet see. Now when someone makes a bold and bizarre idea sometimes that's all it is: bold and bizarre, but it has nothing to do with the world around us. This particular idea, however, has had major impact on physics in the last century and continues to inform a lot of cutting-edge research.

On the morning of September 10, 2008 the CERN large Hadron Collider, located near Geneva, Switzerland conducted its first test by firing protons through the collider in opposite directions at the speed of light. The collision of these protons will test for the existent of parallel universes. It may take up to three years to gather enough data to draw meaningful conclusions.

If you got the point of this reply, congratulations.


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Revelation 21:4 "And [God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes,
and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.
The former things have passed away."


ruveyn
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10 Apr 2009, 7:54 pm

Signs654 wrote:
Just what did he do before he created the world?


Your question presumes the existence of God for which there is not an iota of empirical evidence. Not one little bit. First you should show God exists (you haven't) and then you should ask, provided the question makes sense (which it doesn't). Is God (if he exists at all) a human being who can become bored?

ruveyn



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10 Apr 2009, 7:58 pm

kxmode wrote:
Henriksson wrote:
kxmode wrote:
This universe is merely an experiment in one of God's petre dishes. He has other experiments.

I'll let that sink in for a moment.

Wait, how is that any different from people thousands of years ago declaring that the Earth is flat and a couple generations old?


In 1919 a virtually unknown German mathematician named Theodor Kaluza suggested a very bold, and some ways, very bizarre idea. He proposed that our universe might actually have more than the three dimensions that we are all aware of. That is in addition to left, right, back, forth, and up, down Kaluza proposed that there might be additional dimensions of space, that for some reason we don't yet see. Now when someone makes a bold and bizarre idea sometimes that's all it is: bold and bizarre, but it has nothing to do with the world around us. This particular idea, however, has had major impact on physics in the last century and continues to inform a lot of cutting-edge research.

On the morning of September 10, 2008 the CERN large Hadron Collider, located near Geneva, Switzerland conducted its first test by firing protons through the collider in opposite directions at the speed of light. The collision of these protons will test for the existent of parallel universes. It may take up to three years to gather enough data to draw meaningful conclusions.

If you got the point of this reply, congratulations.

That's like comparing apples to pears. I mean really I don't understand, in all honesty, why you think some sort of speculation about a 'sciencetist' diety is anything like the idea of a dimension called time. Are you of the assumption that there must be a diety if there are parallel universes, or what? Seriously, the idea of invoking god into something is neither bold nor brave, and has been done over and over again since the beginning of history, and theists have had to retreat further and further all the time. Now, with a nice infusion of string theory.

Sorry if I come across as a bit harsh, but I just don't see where you can get this idea.

I do get the point of your reply, but I don't agree with you.


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techstepgenr8tion
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10 Apr 2009, 8:01 pm

Henriksson wrote:
kxmode wrote:
This universe is merely an experiment in one of God's petre dishes. He has other experiments.

I'll let that sink in for a moment.

Wait, how is that any different from people thousands of years ago declaring that the Earth is flat and a couple generations old?

God of the holes, indeed...


All that we know about the universe outside of what we can see for ourselves is that it is just as likely exactly what it was when we believed the earth was flat, exactly what it was when we believed in miasma as our disease theory - the only thing that's changed at all aside from a few rocks bumping around in space is us. At least in the framework of Christianity the only thing that really dates it are the years in which it was written, the available science of the times, and what the believers as separate of the source of their belief injected into their own theories of reality.

I think we're presented with a choice of either believing that it was just post-cavemen being post cavemen (ie. worshipping the cult of the hand) or alternately - the largely unmoved and unchanging realities of the universe reached in for a few moments, spoke to people of that time in language and theory that they could understand based on their level of scientific understanding, and everything else from then on was humanized, human driven, so that the overall appearance of the belief is representative of those who carried the torch rather than the person who brought it in the first place (ie. a word of truth spoken which contextually metastasized like a rumor based on the teller).



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10 Apr 2009, 8:12 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Signs654 wrote:
Just what did he do before he created the world?


Your question presumes the existence of God for which there is not an iota of empirical evidence. Not one little bit. First you should show God exists (you haven't) and then you should ask, provided the question makes sense (which it doesn't). Is God (if he exists at all) a human being who can become bored?


Have you ever considered this? Everything you use was made by humans. None of it simply evolves from other parts. It must be created and made by humans. If we humans are made in God's image we also mimic our maker by being creative, and creating. Are you suggesting nature, humanity, and the very world we live on, isn't made? If you look at all of its simple complexity it truly is a work of art that must have been crafted by a master artist. Who better to know this than the foremost man of science, Sir Issac Newton, who said, "Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done." I think people want to SEE God, like they want to look at a shiny new sports car, but what they fail to understand is that they can see god in the details of his marvelous creations.


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Revelation 21:4 "And [God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes,
and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.
The former things have passed away."


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10 Apr 2009, 8:27 pm

Henriksson wrote:
Sorry if I come across as a bit harsh, but I just don't see where you can get this idea.

I do get the point of your reply, but I don't agree with you.


No problem.

Actually the point of my reply was to point out that Kaluza's idea eventually became a staple of modern science to the point where scientists built a large hadron collider for the purpose of testing his very bold, and very bizarre theory. If someone suggests a very bold, and very bizarre idea like "this universe is merely an experiment in one of God's petre dishes. He has other experiments" it shouldn't be discounted. Yes the idea relies on two things: the reader believes in a supreme being and parallel universe may actually exist. I believe in both.

I would also like to add that I believe in evolution and intelligent design. A creator can design something and breathe life into it, but over time that creation can evolve into something else.


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Revelation 21:4 "And [God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes,
and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.
The former things have passed away."


Last edited by kxmode on 10 Apr 2009, 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Henriksson
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10 Apr 2009, 8:30 pm

kxmode wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Signs654 wrote:
Just what did he do before he created the world?


Your question presumes the existence of God for which there is not an iota of empirical evidence. Not one little bit. First you should show God exists (you haven't) and then you should ask, provided the question makes sense (which it doesn't). Is God (if he exists at all) a human being who can become bored?


Have you ever considered everything you use was made by humans. None of it simply evolves from other parts. It must be crafted by humans. We humans are made in God's image. We also mimic our maker but being creative and creating. Are you suggesting nature, humanity, and the very world we live on, isn't made? If you look at all of its simple complexity it truly is a work of art. Who better to know this than the foremost man of science, Sir Issac Newton, who said, "Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done." I think people want to SEE God like they look at a shiny new sports car, but what they fail to understand is that they can SEE god in all his marvelous creations.

Another poster on another board summed up this mindset pretty nicely.
Zhavric wrote:
I posted this to another thread, but I've decided it's thread worthy.

You (a Christian) and I (an atheist) see a 3 ton weight that's been placed at the top of a tall building. There's no people around and no tools.

I, as an atheist, say "I don't know how it got up there. It was likely a natural explanation like a crane. Cranes are mechanical devices which are well defined, are portable (explaining it's absence) and can lift 3 ton weights onto buildings. I'm open to other explanations, but they need to have as much evidence (if not more so) than the evidence supporting cranes. Right now, it's the best explanation."

You, as a Christian, say "I know exactly how the 3 ton weight got up there. It was a skyhook. A skyhook is a hook that hangs in the sky and pulls things upwards."


This is a terrible explanation for a variety of reasons. First and foremost it doesn't answer the question in any meaningful way. Instead, it takes one question ("How did that weight get up there?") and replaces it with many:
What people made the skyhook?
How does a skyhook hang in the sky?
How can it lift things if it's hanging in the sky?
How is it moved?
Where did it come from?
Where is it now?

So, you've traded one question that has an answer for six questions that don't have answers. Worse, you've been trained that it's a badge of honor to believe in skyhooks and ignore common sense. Now, obviously, it takes a tremendous amount of hutzpa and special pleadings to make this work. Here are the answers Christians would provide:

What people made the skyhook? No one. It's always been around.
How does a skyhook hang in the sky? Because a skyhook, by definition, hangs in the sky.
How can it lift things if it's hanging in the sky? Skyhooks have the power known as "omnileverage". They can lift anything.
How is it moved? It moves itself.
Where did it come from? See question one.
Where is it now? Everywhere and nowhere. In another dimension.
Everything in red is an unsupported claim or a special pleading or both. So, now we have even more questions for which there are no answer.

What you guys need to understand is that god is just a skyhook. It's no different and your so-called "explanations" are no less intellectually banktrupt.


Also, Isaac Newton spent more time on alchemy than he did with his science experiments. Guess what yielded more results.


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kxmode
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10 Apr 2009, 8:42 pm

@Henriksson -- the ego of man is amazing. I'll let that sink in.


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Revelation 21:4 "And [God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes,
and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.
The former things have passed away."


Last edited by kxmode on 10 Apr 2009, 8:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Henriksson
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10 Apr 2009, 8:44 pm

kxmode wrote:
@Henriksson -- the ego of man is amazing. I'll let that sink in.

Yeah, they think there's an incredibly complex being beyond their understanding that cares for them.


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