he does.not.listen

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Has he been assessed for ODD?

I recognize this a lot too. My son never hurts his little brother, but getting him to listen and to respond can be very hard sometimes.

I wish I had any advice, but I dont really as I need it too


I have nagged and nagged that he has to respond, and he seems to know he should, at least a yes/no answer.

The amusing result is that often when pick him up from school I say "hi" and he replies "yes".

This is a very familiar scenario for me, although my daughter doesn't have any siblings.

Here's a typical example: As I see her heading towards the edge of the footpath, I say, 'Stay out of the mud'. She goes into the mud. I say, 'Get out of the mud'. She stays in the mud and starts jumping up and down, getting her clothes filthy, as far up as her hat. I shout, 'Get out of the mud now'. She continues to do as she pleases. I've told ther that I won't be cleaning her shoes any more, which seems to be the worst idea, as she seems fine with that and it doesn't change the fact that I have to wash her coat and hat more often than I should need to. And we might be on our way to somewhere, so she arrives looking a right state. People look at me and her and I'm sure they're wondering why she just won't do what she's told. They just have to say to their kids, 'Stay out of the mud', and it happens. It's the same story, over and over, several times a week, when there's mud around.

Have you heard of the 6 second rule? This suggests giving an instruction, then allowing 6 seconds for the child to process it. Some children might need longer. It doesn't sound like a brilliant idea, when the other child is demanding to be put down, but it might help in other situations.

Whirlingmind mentioned ODD. When my daughter's behaviour was very difficult to deal with, I came across PDA, which is similar to Aspergers and can appear to be a bit like ODD. It's a little controversial, not in the DSM and not widely known about, but there's a mention of it on the UK NAS website http://www.autism.org.uk/about-autism/r ... drome.aspx. The diagnosis of Aspergers seemed to explain the issues with my daughter, but, as she's so non-compliant, she fits the description of PDA much more than compliant kids with Aspergers do.

The last sentence i can subscribe. How shall I listen to anything if I dont even know, that someones talking with me?

I´d mentioned it already in the "How do you play Mutliplayergames." but listening needs my full concentration. If i am thinking of somethings else, I am not listening. So if someone is talking with me, while I am thinking of something else, I do not recognize it. Its just a noise of thousend noises i hear all day long. How shall I know by instinct that this noise is speech, and that it is directed at me? I know, that this is functioning on NTs, and i tried, but I just get exhausted by trying it. ^^ Even if i recognize after some seconds, that someones talking to me, i still need to store the actual things I was thinking of, and need to change my focus of attention to "listening". When I am done half of the message is already said. -.-

My partner really got upset about this in earlier times, because he couldnt understand, how i could sit in 1 meter distance, reading a book in an silent area, and not even recognize when he started to talk with me. He thought I did this on purpose, because he couldnt imagine it. The second thing he learned, was that I had to switch something in my head, before listening. So he got used to say my name, before talking to me. So i turned my head in his direction, but if I hadnt switched the topic in my head already, so I heard he made noises, but I wasnt ready yet, hadn´t stored the topic i was doing until then, and hadnt started the "Noise translation" programm. So i sat there, looked at him, heard noises....and needed to ask him to repeat it. So he cannot understand, how I can hear something clearly, but not hear it.

But I cant change it, the same problems I have with online Games and everything else. So it seems strange to outsiders, but when I join a gaming community I usually tell the leader of the community the same thing that Buyerbeware wrote already in the thread.



Yelling and angry must not got hand in hand. For outsiders it seems weird, that people yell my name loud before talking with me in short, military speech, but this is not rude against me, this is comforting me. (And "military commands" sounds much nicer then "dog-language" to me. ^^) So I understand that short, sharp sentences normally are taken rude, because it means, that people dont wanna talk more to each other then necessary. But if I have to do this "listening-switching" immediately its not full there from there beginning. Its as it needed to warm up. So its functioning after some seconds, but its still not working as intended and doing it, when i am still not fully ready, is exhausting me and making me sick somehow, the more words I get to translate while not fully "functioning".

So when it comes to gaming normally a chatting "Oh there is a sniper on the warehouse southeast. I think he is covering B or C. Oh, and I haven´t got ammunition anymore. Anyone got some for me? Schneekugel, can you see the sniper? If yes, maybe you can try to focus on him, so we can run to B or C....." is considered to be much more friendly than "SCHNEEKUGEL! *wait* Sniper Warehouse ASAP! *wait* Confirm!"

But from my view its like this in the first example: I am focused on aiming a tank with some RPGs. Dont need to tell why, but i am concentrated on that... while i do that there is some noise around me in my headset... then there is something about "Schneekugel", so I start to switch into listening modus, joining in some words after receiving..."...maybe you can focus in him so we can run to B or C...." - What, where, why, who, when? And while I am still trying to get, what it was about the tank splatters me. ^^

The second example: I am focused on aiming a tank with some RPGs. Dont need to tell why, but i am concentrated on that... while i do that there is some noise around me in my headset... "SCHNEEKUGEL!" Oh, someone wants to tell me something. Ok, i better stay some seconds behind a wall and switch to listening mode so i can fully concentrate in a safe position when they talk on. "Sniper Warehouse! ASAP!" Ok, there is a sniper on the warehouse, somehow threatening our squad, and as soon as my fight with the tanks allows me, i shall turn my attention towards him. ... "Confirm!" - "Yop." (= Yes, I did listen and understood. ^^)



I think the missing important information on this was: "YOU ARE PHYSICALLY HURTING HER!", and as it is an important message I would yell from the beginning. I know that for you it seems to be part of the context, so he is taking her, she starts to cry and her face shows pain and she starts to scream "Put me down. Put me down." which he wanted to do anyway a room further. Dont know how much affected your son is, but for him it could have been: He is taking her, some noises, something with the face, everybody telling him to to put her down without an explanation, and he is planning to put her down anyway some meters ahead. Important fact for me would have been, that my sister suffers pain, because of my physical doing.

Maybe you are able to fit this "short sentences" in some little game, so he can choose a name and is "Recruit ..." whenever you talk to him in this way, so you both know its fun and outsiders can see too, that its a sort of game for you, but you are not yelling earnest on him? And when he does fine and listens in important situations, you can grade him up? ^^

Ive done all of the above. I have said, "YOU ARE HURTING HER!! !" and I have also said, "STOP" loud and repeatedly. He doesnt listen. He does waht he intended to do THEN he will put her down or stop!

Before he had the Apsergers diagnosis, I was CONVINCED my son had ODD. He fit 8 out of the 10 or so criteria, and the criteria said you needed only like 4 out of the group and it had to occur a few times a week. Meanwhile he had like 8 and they occured DAILY!! !

When I got his Aspergers diagnosis, the psychiatrist and therapist agreed that his issues were more Aspergers related then ODD. I am not too sure. This child is almost physically incapable of following a direction as it is given. he hHAS to change it, somehow, in order to follow thru.

it is frustrating. We talk about it calm when the situations arent happening, we brainstorm, we coe with ideas, but when he is int he momoent, in th middle of completing his thought or idea, he cannot follow thru on anything we have worked on, nor can he follow the concrete direction as "STOP" or "put her down". and I always say his name.

We have had an ABA come work with us in the house for a while, and I now have a psychologist whose specialty is kids on the spectrum coming...we will see if she can make difference.

I wont give up, I will keep trying till he gets it.

I was talking to a freind last night about my son, and how smart he is, He has a wealth of academic knowledge that he can draw upon at any time. He learns academics with ease and is super smart. What he lacks is common sence. I have NO IDEA how to teach someone common sence. Like if he did something wrong he will say to his sister "Dont tell mom I just...." and he will say it loud and right in froont of me. I actually TEACH him to whisper it or do it in another room...lol. I have to teach him how to outsmart his 3yo sister. Like if she is grabbing a toy, to make like you dont care and then she will leave it alone. We work on this multiple times day and he still has no idea. Yet, he can do math that is grade levels ahead of his age, he can remember facts, and things about astronomy, phases of the moon, but he cannot remember to whisper out of my earshot when he is trying to get away with something.

He is a puzzle my boy!

Common sense is a huge issue, and I do not think it can be taught, although you can increase the number of responses they hold in the bank. The more situations you run through with them, the more they hold in that bank.

I've believed that the best thing is to help my son simply avoid needing a whole lot of common sense. Get his knowledge bank as filled up as possible and then steer him into subjects and situations where he can rely on his knowledge bank. I think most people with ASD will tell you that is how they like things, to not have to react beyond what they already know how to react to.

Which is kind of funny when you consider how inventive my son can be .... I guess that is an internal creative process, not a reactive one like common sense has to be.

In both these cases, "not listening" really means "not obeying". Typical kids obey directions like these because they have an internal social incentive to please their parents or other adults. ASD kids aren't nearly as motivated to please other people (even parents). ADHD kids need immediate incentives that are motivating enough in the moment to overcome an impulse.

In the descriptions above, I don't see a reward or consequence offered that would motivate an ASD child to put down his sister or avoid the mud. The internal reward of finishing his plan is very strong. And the fun of jumping in the mud is about as rewarding as it gets!

You need rewards and consequences that can be handed out immediately and frequently thorughout the day and are meaningful to your child. Hopefully the ABA therapist can help you identify and implement this.

Also, I've had some success with a slow countdown followed by a consequence. For instance, "Give the doll back to your sister. If I get to 0, you get a timeout. 5...4...3...2...1...0." The countdown is delivered slowly and with emphasis -- it gives DS time to take in the direction and to respond. Usually he starts complying at about 3, and I slow the count down so he is successful.

I used to do that, before my son matured. Combined with 10, 5 and 1 minute warnings when the situation allows it. Very effective.

This is what makes me think it might be a verbal processing delay: the academics are usually offered visually.

BTW, we use counting often, too - and counting DOWN is important, because zero is a definite stopping point (we started to count UP to five, but he knew we could just keep going...) In fact, DS reacts so strongly to counting that I try not to do it these days.

Lol. I use counting so much now that my NT 3 yo twins will comply immediately and yell, "Don't count! Don't count!"

I used timers for a couple of years. I had them all over the house. My son would argue all day long with me even if he knew I had a point, but if I used a timer, he would rarely argue.

Just a bit of differing opinion, and while all the other suggestions might correct as well, this is what I discovered by observing my daughter and my wife. Daughter does the same thing...you say stop, and she continues, no matter how it's said, unless it's a scream, she wouldn't stop. I observed this for about a month, and considered processing delays as well. Which did fit very nicely as an explanation....buuuuut, it just didn't "feel" right to me.

Finally, I discovered it wasn't that at all. Instead, I figured out just how SMART she is, and she was continuing to do something she wanted to, even though she was told to stop, simply because she knew she could. Essentially, the "consequences", were worth it to her. The consequences being the usual message of disappointment, "why didn't you stop? we know you could hear us!". One day, she responded without much thought and said, "because you're just going to tell me not to do it again, why shouldn't I finish?"

I was flabberghasted at first...I mean, how selfish of her! But, to be honest, what kid isn't to a certain degree?. Also, who am I to talk? I've gotten a speeding ticket, yet I still speed from time to time because I have to get somewhere quicker. I know the consequences, but still take the risk, and sometimes get busted. This is nothing more than them doing the same with you...except you're the cop!

It's like this...after awhile, all kids KNOW what "levels" of anger and frustration their parents have. They know what's going to result in x, y, or z response from you. If you're the kind that doesn't punish with pain (like me), in all reality, the kid will eventually figure out that they have nothing to lose by following through with what they want...other than possibly upsetting you. The kids use our tone to convey our level of "wrong" to them...and subconsciously, they know if you're just a little angry, or REALLY angry. So, they know that just raising your voice won't do much, they know not heading warnings won't do much, but they know that EPIC parental blood-curdling scream that most every parents has. Then, and only then, are they uncertain about their fate and break free to pay attention.

It leaves a parent kinda lost as to what to do about it though...you can't just go straight to bloody murder scream all the time, nor do you want to beat your child. What we found worked with our daughter was to create a 'personal responsibility' chart. When she listens and stops when asked, or does something when asked, without the usual game, she earns points towards things she REALLY wants. They're worthwhile prizes like extra horse riding time, money for the mall, or eventually her own laptop (that's a 3 month consecutive goal of 250+ points per month). Each time she doesn't exercise her personal responsibility, she can lose points too.

At first it was a constant up and down battle with her...she even tore up the list 3 times during the first week. However, we stayed focused and kept her directed at using it. Slowly, but surely, she has become MUCH more responsive in exercising her self control.

Hope that might help!

Peace,
Chris

One small add....

When issuing directions, I always state what I want rather than what I don't. For example, instead of "get out of the mud" I would say, "feet on the footpath", instead of "don't run" I say "walking feet".

I think that we may sound like blah blah blah blah blah MUD or blah blah blah blah blah footpath... I think we have a batter shot of getting what we want if we say exactly what we want. I want it to be a single mind step instead of.... ok don't walk in the mud but then what? grass looks good...oh look at the puddle....

I also counted but held up my fingers. One thing that I was very consistent about is as soon as I finished saying the word two, and my two fingers were in the air, I got up from my seat or stopped what I was doing. My son got used to the count and understood that I was on my way...

I rarely do this now since he's 13. But, every once in a while it still helps.

I have started randomly awarding my son a dollar when I catch him doing specific things I want. For instance, he doesn't like to wear socks with his shoes which causes his shoes to smell so bad the whole house is stinky. I now will randomly notice that he's wearing socks and give him $1. He loves this and wants to be caught wearing socks. I'm doing the same thing with homework and having his backpack packed. So, maybe handing your child something he likes when you notice him doing right? Charts and some of the complicated plans don't work for us, we all have the attention span of gnats... It needs to be immediate and random is important, I don't want to pay for every good deed.

Yes same here. Either doesn't hear me or is so set in what shes doing that she doesn't care. Sometimes I put my face right in hers to get her attention or I surprise her to get her attention. I have heard that with older kids you can reward them for doing things the FIRST time you ask them and that works sometimes. So for instance you explain, "ok from now on when you do something the first time I ask you you get a star on your chart, get 50 stars and you get X" then everytime you ask them anything like, "put your shoes on" if they do it the first time you ask, they get a star. If they don't, they don't. I hear it works, but the child needs to be like in the 6,7,8 range and HF. My daughter is not quite ready yet, we might try it next year.

I had our daughter create her own scale (with our help to ensure it was reasonable, and sensible), so she has several options for her points. She gets 5 per 'reward' and 5 are valued at $1...she can cash out at the end of the week if she chooses.