why do people bash islam but love christianity??

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nominalist
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03 Aug 2013, 5:38 pm

albedo wrote:

That is the nature of faith, you believe this. Few Muslims would though. it believe I the style of, and a extension, etc, just like Islam is a an extension or rehash of Abrahamic faith.

Quite the opposite. Any knowledgeable Muslim would immediately recognize that the Baháʾí Faith is not a branch of Islām. Just as Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, and Buddhists commonly distinguish between religions based on dharma (Sanskrit for upholding or support), Muslims do the same based on Šarīʿa (Arabic for way or path) or religious law. The two religions have very different sets of religious laws.

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albedo
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03 Aug 2013, 5:41 pm

nominalist wrote:

albedo wrote:

That is the nature of faith, you believe this. Few Muslims would though. it believe I the style of, and a extension, etc, just like Islam is a an extension or rehash of Abrahamic faith.

This is not the reality though. Baháʾí are considered apostate, and therefore not part of Islam.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/71346

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03 Aug 2013, 5:52 pm

Ok then so are we nearly at a conclusion yet?

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nominalist
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03 Aug 2013, 6:00 pm

albedo wrote:

This is not the reality though. Baháʾí are considered apostate, and therefore not part of Islam.

Isn't that what I said? We are an independent religion from Islām.

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03 Aug 2013, 8:30 pm

TallyMan wrote:

babybird wrote:

I didn't realise that religion could evoke such strong emotions in people. I thought it was just a load of hippies praying.

Never underestimate the power of religion to stir up strong emotions... to the point of brutality, killing and war all done in its name.

I don't agree with religions stirring emotions. What religion gives is a strong moral justification to behave in a certain way.

During wars, when people feel that the social contract is temporally suspended, you can see 'normal' people behaving in a brutal and cruel way.

Religion gives this same kind of moral justification to people to behave brutally. It doesn't make people more emotional, it just takes the social contract away when it comes to unbelievers and unleashes the real men behind.

wreck1 wrote:

True. Physically dead. He went up to heaven and his body vansihed from this world (or maybe was hidden i dont know what happened to him after he was crusified). But he went up to heaven right? So there is this chakra system which talks that the mind is above and the body is down. On reason which compells me to claim that I am apostle is because I "like" came down from heaven. And the quran is full of parables, nothing is litteral (we agree on this i assume).

Becaue I have Aspergers. And I used to live very isolated and inside my mind. I totally neglected my body and its needs as if I had no body and only mind. This is as close as it gets.

There's different theories, as...

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albedo
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04 Aug 2013, 4:35 am

nominalist wrote:

albedo wrote:

This is not the reality though. Baháʾí are considered apostate, and therefore not part of Islam.

Isn't that what I said? We are an independent religion from Islām.

Sure I never said you weren't, I said you improve on it.

Islam does not consider you another chapter in the Abrahamic tradition. Islam, take the Quran to be immutable, an not capable of being superseded, and for there to be no further prophets other then those mentioned within.

Islam attempts to close the lid on the Abrahamic story. It is that simple.

However Islam needs more and more sect and offshoots that subvert Islam.

My view on religion like Baháʾí is rather like early Christianity, they change the status quo, and they are more remarkable in that way, than out of context.

In the case of Mohamed's story, the Meccan's were brutal, he did not conform, but formed an equally brutal religion. So he didn't really change much other than making people more anally retentive, and socially conservative.

albedo
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04 Aug 2013, 4:46 am

Greb wrote:

Religion gives this same kind of moral justification to people to behave brutally. It doesn't make people more emotional, it just takes the social contract away when it comes to unbelievers and unleashes the real men behind.

I agree with what you said, generally speaking it can do that.

Just to stipulate, religion doesn't have a monopoly on this. Is is just one of the ways it can be done. I thought I get that in early, as it a common fallacy that religion causes conflict in the world, which you have clearly not said. of course conflict comes from a animal behavior religion is a manifestation of our nature. Take away religion and conflict will still be these, just other means will be used to achieve it.

A good example of moral justification is Early Muslim Brotherhood doctrine which gave the impression that unbelievers weren't really living human in the same sense that believer were alive, and not really being alive (i.e. like zombies) make it easier to dehumanize and therefore kill.

It is based around the idea of possession or being taken over by evil, which is a common theme.

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04 Aug 2013, 11:54 am

Gods not real so no point wasting ones life on fairytales!

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wreck1
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04 Aug 2013, 12:03 pm

Greb wrote:

wreck1 wrote:

There's different theories, as...

heard abouy restraint? Sorry the sarcastic tone.
I mean life is about power. And power haas to be controlled.
Now I am Muslim, Not Christian. And I have learned the art of war like TallyMan might know about.
I know how to restrain myself. I just thought of twilight Cullens. They know how to restrain themselves although they were vampires.

edit: when it comes to this story. You still didnt give me keywords. Give me one.

nominalist
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04 Aug 2013, 12:56 pm

albedo wrote:

Sure I never said you weren't, I said you improve on it.

Well, I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't regard the Baháʾí Faith as an improved version of any other religion - anymore than chapter 2 of a book is an improvement over chapter 1. All the chapters are important.

albedo wrote:

Islam does not consider you another chapter in the Abrahamic tradition. Islam, take the Quran to be immutable, an not capable of being superseded, and for there to be no further prophets other then those mentioned within.

It depends on the Muslim. I have many Muslim friends who have a great deal of respect for the Baháʾí Faith and regard it as a fellow monotheistic, or Abrahamic, religion. My suggestion is not to base your view of Islām on Muslim websites. As with many Christian websites, Muslim websites tend not to represent the views of the average Muslim.

albedo wrote:

Islam attempts to close the lid on the Abrahamic story. It is that simple.

Both Muslims and Baháʾís regard Muḥammad, peace be upon Him, as the Seal of the Prophets (al-Hātim an-Nabiyīn). However, we understand the concept differently. Nevertheless, that does not mean that all, or even most, Muslims view the Baháʾí Faith negatively. Again, online websites are often not representative of anything.

albedo wrote:

However Islam needs more and more sect and offshoots that subvert Islam.

You are presumably talking about Islāmists, not average Muslims. As I said, I have many friends who are Muslims, and I respect all of them. I have no desire to see Islām "subverted."

albedo wrote:

In the case of Mohamed's story, the Meccan's were brutal, he did not conform, but formed an equally brutal religion. So he didn't really change much other than making people more anally retentive, and socially conservative.

The Holy Prophet defended his ummā (community) against attacks. He then made very generous treaties with the attackers. The life of the Prophet has been distorted by His detractors.

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04 Aug 2013, 1:13 pm

nominalist wrote:

The Holy Prophet defended his ummā (community) against attacks. He then made very generous treaties with the attackers. The life of the Prophet has been distorted by His detractors.

I agree completely. Muhammad's magnanimity towards his opponents after the Battle of the Trench is truly the stuff of legend. And the Battle of Khaybar was a purely defensive act from his community.

nominalist
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04 Aug 2013, 1:25 pm

Well, the Caliphate (al-H̱ilāfa) sometimes later undermined much of the good performed by the Holy Prophet.

Greb
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04 Aug 2013, 1:37 pm

Just was checking about Baha'ism in the wikipedia. Dude, that's almost the opposite of islam. Indeed, it looks much closer of some christian currents heavily influenced by indian mysticism, as it happens with Tony de Mello, for example. I wish the whole islam was like that.

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04 Aug 2013, 1:41 pm

@nominalist: I was being ironic.

After The Battle of The Trench, Muhammad had all the men of the Banu Qurayza executed and he distributed the women and children to his followers as slaves.
The Battle of Khaybar was initiated by Muhammad, and once victorious, he once again distributed captured women and children to his followers as slaves. He kept one woman for himself, though, after having her husband executed.

All according to Islamic sources, not "detractors".

EDIT: I speling nod gud.

Last edited by GGPViper on 04 Aug 2013, 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nominalist
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04 Aug 2013, 2:40 pm

I am familiar with the story. Whether the details are completely accurate, no one can know for sure. However, most scholars do not question it.

The objective of the Prophet was to establish al-ʾumma (community or nation). Anyone who opposed that effort was conquered and then treated fairly. God's Will and human standards are not always identical.

Quote:

The spirit that animateth the human heart is the knowledge of God, and its truest adorning is the recognition of the truth that “He doeth whatsoever He willeth, and ordaineth that which He pleaseth.” Its raiment is the fear of God, and its perfection steadfastness in His Faith. Thus God instructeth whosoever seeketh Him. He, verily, loveth the one that turneth towards Him. There is none other God but Him, the Forgiving, the Most Bountiful. All praise be to God, the Lord of all worlds.

Baháʾuʾlláh

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04 Aug 2013, 3:03 pm

nominalist wrote:

I am familiar with the story. Whether the details are completely accurate, no one can know for sure. However, most scholars do not question it.

The objective of the Prophet was to establish al-ʾumma (community or nation). Anyone who opposed that effort was conquered and then treated fairly. God's Will and human standards are not always identical.

Quote:

Please explain how being exterminated or reduced to slaves can be considered being "treated fairly".

Oh, and while you are at it, I'd much appreciate your opinion on whether or not Muhammad explicitly granting Muslims the right to rape the slaves they received as war booty when establishing their community amounts to "treating them fairly".

Once again, all according to Islamic sources.

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