To religious people. Will atheists go to hell or heaven?

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z0rp
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03 Jun 2008, 2:23 pm

I'm doing my best to reserve my place in hell.

Of course I'm not doing anything 'bad' like murdering people, just general blasphemy and things that don't actually hurt people but are considering sins.

Ragtime
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03 Jun 2008, 2:25 pm

Kalister1 wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

MR_BOGAN wrote:

I'm an atheist. If there is a god, do you believe I will get into heaven? Or will I go to Hell.

What does your religion say will happen to me?

This is just my opinion but here it goes.

If God really is omniscient and all-knowing, he created this, he knew what would happen, he'd have the capacity to follow the chain of cause and effect just based on our own limitations, what he gave us as personality types, what we'd be inclined toward, what it would take for us to - in our lives - hit a tipping point in terms of seeing enough of the right things. In other words omniscient, omnipotent, and creator means he'd have to have perfect empathy. Perfect empathy would be a nature which would understand why every atheist is who they are, why they disbelieve in his existence, some have very valid reasons others don't - more relative to how their wired, what's happened to them emotionally, what they've seen or haven't; he left a lot of room in this world for doubt, deliberately, and he knows it.

He also sent Himself down as a man into Israel, a man who physically healed so many blind people, lame people, and lepers, and taught so astonishingly that news of this amazing healing and teaching eventually travelled all over the world.
In all fairness, the Messiah left little room for doubt, either in Israel or across the globe.

And I agree, God knows everyone's heart, and the Bible says He will judge every person rightly,
based on His omniscient knowledge.

These things are clear from Scripture:

1. No one will go to Hell without deserving it, which God defines as deliberate denial of Him.
(And "denial" doesn't mean denial of His existence, for everyone has inner instinct of that.
Rather, "denial" refers to the denial to serve Him as Lord of their lives.)

2. No one will get into Heaven on their own merits. No one deserves to be there.
Jesus paid the price of all our sin, so that those who accept that payment get in free.

One can make a gift certificate analogy for eternal Salvation. (Really!)
If someone buys everyone in the world a gift certificate to an internet store,
who among those will reap the benefits? Those who take and use their gift certificate.
If you go to the website on your own merits, however, they won't give you anything.

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

If a person's is being what they were built to be and has not been able to hear a persuasive argument and has wanted to; I can't see him taking it out on em.

No one who truly wants to believe in God will fail to do so. And any extent to which someone would say
that person "failed", God will count as success, and let them in.

You can not use arguments from scriptures.

Can't I? I think I just did.
Sorry, neither you nor I make the rules as to whom can use what referrences.

Kalister1 wrote:

Even people who advocate Christianity do not use it

That is a patently false statement, presumably out of extreme wishful thinking.

Kalister1 wrote:

as its a weak premise.

It is a very strong premise. The strongest, in fact.
A weak premise is something like your attempt to set the stage of argument with:
"People who advocate Christianity do not use [Scripture]".
Your statement aspires to become a weak premise, for it is a mere lie.

Kalister1 wrote:

Please, use logic and not something that has been shown, multiple times, to lead to an infinitely recursive argument.

Well, if you'll stop blatantly lying, maybe we'll make some progress.
You're better at the subtle untruths. I'd stick to those.

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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.

Last edited by Ragtime on 03 Jun 2008, 2:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

twoshots
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03 Jun 2008, 2:29 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Can't I? I think I just did.
Sorry, neither you nor I make the rules as to whom can use what referrences.

No, but I do. An argument from scripture is a classic begging the question fallacy and/or an irresolvable regression.

Epic Fail.

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Ragtime
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03 Jun 2008, 2:29 pm

twoshots wrote:

An argument from scripture is a classic begging the question fallacy and/or an irresolvable regression.

Epic Fail.

^^^ Unqualified opinon.

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Kalister1
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03 Jun 2008, 2:31 pm

twoshots wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Can't I? I think I just did.
Sorry, neither you nor I make the rules as to whom can use what referrences.

No, but I do. An argument from scripture is a classic begging the question fallacy and/or an irresolvable regression.

Epic Fail.

Thank you. I won't be responding to any more of his posts, as he has proven himself to not have the ability to discuss this topic.

twoshots
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03 Jun 2008, 2:32 pm

Ragtime wrote:

twoshots wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Can't I? I think I just did.
Sorry, neither you nor I make the rules as to whom can use what referrences.

No, but I do. An argument from scripture is a classic begging the question fallacy and/or an irresolvable regression.

Epic Fail.

^^^ Unqualified opinon.

Define unqualified. Argument from scripture was the example of "begging the question" in my Intro to Logic class. If you're arguing with an opponent who does not accept the validity of the scriptures as the word of God, anything which relies upon that fact is not a valid place to start an argument.

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Ragtime
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03 Jun 2008, 2:42 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Kalister1 wrote:

Please, use logic

you might as well also ask him for a million dollars while you're at it cause you're not getting either.

Actually, I've used "Logic" to write my music for eight years, thanks.

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Ragtime
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03 Jun 2008, 2:44 pm

Kalister1 wrote:

twoshots wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Can't I? I think I just did.
Sorry, neither you nor I make the rules as to whom can use what referrences.

No, but I do. An argument from scripture is a classic begging the question fallacy and/or an irresolvable regression.

Epic Fail.

Thank you. I won't be responding to any more of his posts, as he has proven himself to not have the ability to discuss this topic.

Wouldn't your leaving indicate the latter concerning you?
C'mon, don't be a paper tiger!

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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.

Last edited by Ragtime on 03 Jun 2008, 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ragtime
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03 Jun 2008, 2:47 pm

z0rp wrote:

I'm doing my best to reserve my place in hell.

Of course I'm not doing anything 'bad' like murdering people, just general blasphemy and things that don't actually hurt people but are considering sins.

So, you won't blame God if you go to Hell, right? You admit you know why you're going there,
so in admitting that, you've forfeited your right to tell God you didn't know any better when you are judged.

Just making sure you're fully okay with God sending you to Hell.

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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.

Last edited by Ragtime on 03 Jun 2008, 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ragtime
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03 Jun 2008, 3:02 pm

twoshots wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

twoshots wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Can't I? I think I just did.
Sorry, neither you nor I make the rules as to whom can use what referrences.

No, but I do. An argument from scripture is a classic begging the question fallacy and/or an irresolvable regression.

Epic Fail.

^^^ Unqualified opinon.

Define unqualified.

Okay, I will:

Merriam-Webster wrote:

1 : not fit : not having requisite qualifications
2 : not modified or restricted by reservations

twoshots wrote:

Argument from scripture was the example of "begging the question" in my Intro to Logic class. If you're arguing with an opponent who does not accept the validity of the scriptures as the word of God, anything which relies upon that fact is not a valid place to start an argument.

I'm sorry you had to be taught conjecture in your Intro to Logic class, but that is exactly what you got, as far as you've said above.
And it's a clear fallacy to say that a text can reveal no truths about itself.

Also, the way your teacher used the phrase "opponent who does not accept the validity of the Scriptures as the Word of God" would have to imply that such a person not just merely "does not accept", but wholeheartedly denies without exception any possibility that the Scriptures could be the Word of God.

(And if you think your or anyone else's brain capable of becoming a perfect logic machine, I'm afraid you are in for a disappointment.)

Your teacher is saying that not one person has ever been converted to Christianity!
:lol:

Your teacher needs to go stand in the corner, for he or she is a dunce.

A person who merely "does not accept" Scripture as the Word of God would be most of the people who later accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior! :lol:

And many of them report they were led to Christ BY SCRIPTURE! So the argument is patently false!
Your teacher is being absurd, and for shame in a Logic class! :shameonyou:

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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.

Last edited by Ragtime on 03 Jun 2008, 3:12 pm, edited 8 times in total.

Kalister1
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03 Jun 2008, 3:04 pm

I would recommend we universally ignore his posts You can join me or not.

LOL. The arrogance! Tell me Ragtime, where is your doctorate, since you know so much more than the professor? I rest my case.

greenblue
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03 Jun 2008, 3:12 pm

Kalister1 wrote:

I would recommend we universally ignore his posts

You can join me or not.

We can always laugh.

Quote:

LOL. The arrogance! Tell me Ragtime, where is your doctorate, since you know so much more than the professor? I rest my case.

Well, he didn't get the point, it is indeed a fallacy to use portions from the Bible, as he does, to make a point in an argument, when the majority here (oponents) don't believe in it as the source of "truth". It is very clear.

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Last edited by greenblue on 03 Jun 2008, 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ragtime
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03 Jun 2008, 3:16 pm

Kalister1 wrote:

I would recommend we universally ignore his posts

You can join me or not.

LOL. The arrogance! Tell me Ragtime, where is your doctorate, since you know so much more than the professor? I rest my case.

Do doctoral degrees produce knowledge,
or does knowledge produce doctoral degrees?

The professor may indeed know more than me, but in such a case,
his low level of honesty makes the cited lesson ineffectual.

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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.

Kalister1
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03 Jun 2008, 3:19 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Kalister1 wrote:

I would recommend we universally ignore his posts

You can join me or not.

LOL. The arrogance! Tell me Ragtime, where is your doctorate, since you know so much more than the professor? I rest my case.

Do doctoral degrees produce knowledge,
or does knowledge produce doctoral degrees?

It shows he has credentials, and has a semblance of knowledge in the subject he teaches; you seem to have none. You have proven yourself incapable of partaking in this discussion, while showing massive amounts of hubris.

You remind me of the prisoners in The Allegory of the Cave.

greenblue
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03 Jun 2008, 3:22 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Kalister1 wrote:

I would recommend we universally ignore his posts

You can join me or not.

LOL. The arrogance! Tell me Ragtime, where is your doctorate, since you know so much more than the professor? I rest my case.

Do doctoral degrees produce knowledge,
or does knowledge produce doctoral degrees?

The professor may indeed know more than me, but in such a case,
his low level of honesty makes the cited lesson ineffectual.

Now we are judging the professor, without knowing more about what he/she said and where was the source of it (which is in fact a valid point btw and you seem to either misinterpreted it or just rejected it), aren't we?

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Ragtime
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03 Jun 2008, 3:25 pm

greenblue wrote:

Kalister1 wrote:

I would recommend we universally ignore his posts

You can join me or not.

We can always laugh.

Quote:

LOL. The arrogance! Tell me Ragtime, where is your doctorate, since you know so much more than the professor? I rest my case.

I understood the lesson, and the lesson, as it was presented, is absurd, twofold:
1. It assumes debators are logic machines, unable to view anything that is outside their current logic.
2. It therefore negates the concept "to convince".

To convince means to change someone's mind. And that change is usually based on new information having been provided.
By definition, that new information was not part of their logic.

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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.

Last edited by Ragtime on 03 Jun 2008, 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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