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vermontsavant
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16 Sep 2020, 1:34 pm

emotrtkey wrote:
magz wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
"The earliest Greek texts we have that include the Gospel of John do not include John 7:53—8:11. Church fathers and others make no mention of it until the twelfth century. And, many words used in this passage are used nowhere else in John's gospel. For these reasons and more, many theologians believe this passage does not belong in Scripture." https://www.compellingtruth.org/John-7-53-8-11.html

My (Roman Catholic) copy of the Bible comments it (translation mine): "This fragment, surely Inspired and canonical, initially did not belong to st John's Gospel, as it's absent in the oldest manuscripts; the topic and style suggest st Luke".


I haven't joined the Catholic church yet so I still have my Protestant bibles but I looked it up. It appears the passage is condemning hypocritical judging (judging people when you're guilty of the same sins or greater sins) since the Pharisees judged a woman for adultery while they committed a greater sin of rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. I don't have a problem following that verse. Pointing out that certain behavior is sinful isn't the same as judging individual people of sin.


That answers everything,so your a protestant who converted to Catholicism.Thats why you talk like a non denominational fundamentalist Christian but state the Catholic Church as true Christianity.

My mother was Catholic and my maternal grandparents were,you don't talk like someone who was raised in the church.

I wasn't raised in the Catholic Church either,my dad was Danish protestant and I was never baptised or taken to church as a kid.

I studied Judaism and Old Testament Hebrew in my late 20's but never converted.


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vermontsavant
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16 Sep 2020, 1:39 pm

emotrtkey wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that there are still some men who believe that they have the privilege of dictating what women can do with their own bodies.  It's as if those men perceive women as property, and not as human beings.


It never ceases to amaze me that there are some women who believe that they have the privilege of dictating whether children should be allowed to live. It's as if those women perceive their children as their property, and not as human beings.
It's a cruel world I guess :?


The pro-abortion arguments I hear basically treat it like modern day slavery. The mother is the master or owner of her child who is her property that she can dispose of or do as she wishes with him or her. The father has no rights or say in what happens to his child because the child is, according to pro-abortionists, the sole property of his mother. A father trying to save his child's life is considered to violate a woman rights since she owns the child and can do whatever she wishes with the property she owns. Pro-lifers are like slave abolitionists trying to save children from their masters.


The factory owns the man
The man owns the woman
The woman owns the child
The child has none to speak for him


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magz
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16 Sep 2020, 1:40 pm

I'm not pro abortion. I think every abortion is a tragedy that should be prevented if possible.

However, even out Catholic episcopate opposed the concept of the law punishing the mothers for having abortions, argumenting it that "while the child is always the primary victim of an abortion, the mother is often the secondary one".


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16 Sep 2020, 2:05 pm

Well it's not as if Trumps base would be upset if he did that.

Actual patriotic americans however do not approve of such treason.


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emotrtkey
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16 Sep 2020, 2:12 pm

magz wrote:
I remind you what started this debate: you claimed "a swift execution would be more appropriate from a moral standpoint" for women having abortions and then claimed your "morality is based on Christianity".

Reading the Gospels, I find quite a lot of passages opposing the morality of "swift executions". Don't you?


No, I don't. The Gospels don't contain instructions on how government should be run. The focus is on individuals. It's certainly wrong for an individual to execute someone but the death penalty existed in the Roman empire and I don't see a single verse that condemns it.



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16 Sep 2020, 2:18 pm

emotrtkey wrote:
No, I don't. The Gospels don't contain instructions on how government should be run.

Then how do you claim to derive your opinions on law making from Christianity?


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emotrtkey
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16 Sep 2020, 2:26 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
magz wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
"The earliest Greek texts we have that include the Gospel of John do not include John 7:53—8:11. Church fathers and others make no mention of it until the twelfth century. And, many words used in this passage are used nowhere else in John's gospel. For these reasons and more, many theologians believe this passage does not belong in Scripture." https://www.compellingtruth.org/John-7-53-8-11.html

My (Roman Catholic) copy of the Bible comments it (translation mine): "This fragment, surely Inspired and canonical, initially did not belong to st John's Gospel, as it's absent in the oldest manuscripts; the topic and style suggest st Luke".


I haven't joined the Catholic church yet so I still have my Protestant bibles but I looked it up. It appears the passage is condemning hypocritical judging (judging people when you're guilty of the same sins or greater sins) since the Pharisees judged a woman for adultery while they committed a greater sin of rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. I don't have a problem following that verse. Pointing out that certain behavior is sinful isn't the same as judging individual people of sin.


That answers everything,so your a protestant who converted to Catholicism.Thats why you talk like a non denominational fundamentalist Christian but state the Catholic Church as true Christianity.

My mother was Catholic and my maternal grandparents were,you don't talk like someone who was raised in the church.

I wasn't raised in the Catholic Church either,my dad was Danish protestant and I was never baptised or taken to church as a kid.

I studied Judaism and Old Testament Hebrew in my late 20's but never converted.


I always just followed the literal teaching of the Bible which condemns factions/denominations (1 Cor 1:10-13). All of the denominations I looked into taught stuff that contradicted the Bible so I never joined any of them. The Catholic Church taught stuff I couldn't find in the Bible but agreed with the Bible on other important stuff (like the need to repent and live a moral life) so I studied the history of Christianity from primary sources (early Christian writings) to avoid bias and found out the early Christians didn't believe in Bible alone and followed the same doctrines the Catholic Church teaches today.



emotrtkey
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16 Sep 2020, 2:34 pm

magz wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
No, I don't. The Gospels don't contain instructions on how government should be run.

Then how do you claim to derive your opinions on law making from Christianity?


The Old Testament is part of Christianity. It's clear that God approved of the death penalty for killing innocent lives. I know the Catholic Church leans against it now but only because it may no longer be necessary, not because God is opposed to it. I didn't mean to imply people should be executed, just that it was "more appropriate" than letting people get away with murder. I'd probably prefer 20 years of hard labor although I wouldn't be opposed to execution if it acted as a deterrent to save more lives.



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16 Sep 2020, 2:39 pm

So, do you think harsh punishments are necessary to deter people from crime?


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16 Sep 2020, 2:45 pm

emotrtkey wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
magz wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
"The earliest Greek texts we have that include the Gospel of John do not include John 7:53—8:11. Church fathers and others make no mention of it until the twelfth century. And, many words used in this passage are used nowhere else in John's gospel. For these reasons and more, many theologians believe this passage does not belong in Scripture." https://www.compellingtruth.org/John-7-53-8-11.html

My (Roman Catholic) copy of the Bible comments it (translation mine): "This fragment, surely Inspired and canonical, initially did not belong to st John's Gospel, as it's absent in the oldest manuscripts; the topic and style suggest st Luke".


I haven't joined the Catholic church yet so I still have my Protestant bibles but I looked it up. It appears the passage is condemning hypocritical judging (judging people when you're guilty of the same sins or greater sins) since the Pharisees judged a woman for adultery while they committed a greater sin of rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. I don't have a problem following that verse. Pointing out that certain behavior is sinful isn't the same as judging individual people of sin.


That answers everything,so your a protestant who converted to Catholicism.Thats why you talk like a non denominational fundamentalist Christian but state the Catholic Church as true Christianity.

My mother was Catholic and my maternal grandparents were,you don't talk like someone who was raised in the church.

I wasn't raised in the Catholic Church either,my dad was Danish protestant and I was never baptised or taken to church as a kid.

I studied Judaism and Old Testament Hebrew in my late 20's but never converted.


I always just followed the literal teaching of the Bible which condemns factions/denominations (1 Cor 1:10-13). All of the denominations I looked into taught stuff that contradicted the Bible so I never joined any of them. The Catholic Church taught stuff I couldn't find in the Bible but agreed with the Bible on other important stuff (like the need to repent and live a moral life) so I studied the history of Christianity from primary sources (early Christian writings) to avoid bias and found out the early Christians didn't believe in Bible alone and followed the same doctrines the Catholic Church teaches today.
I'm from Kennedy Irish Massachusetts so I view Catholicism as more of a cultural thing,and not to mention the Portuguese and Italians in MA as well.It's a very Catholic state,the black neighborhoods have some protestant churches,and the Puerto Rican's are going Pentacostal,and there is a Jewish population,and don't forget the Witches in Salem.

But overall a deeply Catholic state.
Vermont,New Hampshire and Maine are America's most Atheistic states,there is no religion in those states,religion is almost a non issue there.
Connecticut is old time traditional New England protestant going back to the puritan's,you know,white church in the town center,very affluent,upper class.
I don't know enough about Rhode Island to really comment on them.


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16 Sep 2020, 2:47 pm

emotrtkey wrote:
magz wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
No, I don't. The Gospels don't contain instructions on how government should be run.

Then how do you claim to derive your opinions on law making from Christianity?


The Old Testament is part of Christianity. It's clear that God approved of the death penalty for killing innocent lives. I know the Catholic Church leans against it now but only because it may no longer be necessary, not because God is opposed to it. I didn't mean to imply people should be executed, just that it was "more appropriate" than letting people get away with murder. I'd probably prefer 20 years of hard labor although I wouldn't be opposed to execution if it acted as a deterrent to save more lives.
The Pope has always been passionately anti-death penalty,passionately anti-death penalty.That's been a big dispute between Catholics and Protestants.


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magz
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16 Sep 2020, 2:56 pm

When it comes to death penalty, the only European state that still does it is Belarus.


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16 Sep 2020, 3:16 pm

magz wrote:
When it comes to death penalty, the only European state that still does it is Belarus.
Yes your right,I think we discussed that on the news forum on the Belarus crisis thread.One of my closest friends who I will be meeting for lunch in a couple weeks grandparents were from Belarus.


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16 Sep 2020, 4:01 pm

If you want a theocracy, you can move to one instead of illegally having the military create one in a free country.

I don't really appreciate the discussion of martial law in my country because we won't convert. This president is not religious anyway.


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16 Sep 2020, 4:48 pm

emotrtkey wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that there are still some men who believe that they have the privilege of dictating what women can do with their own bodies.  It's as if those men perceive women as property, and not as human beings.
It never ceases to amaze me that there are some women who believe that they have the privilege of dictating whether children should be allowed to live. It's as if those women perceive their children as their property, and not as human beings.
a. A woman owns her body.

b. A fetus is part of a woman's body until birth.

: : A woman owns the fetus inside her body until birth.



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16 Sep 2020, 8:07 pm

Fnord wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that there are still some men who believe that they have the privilege of dictating what women can do with their own bodies.  It's as if those men perceive women as property, and not as human beings.
It never ceases to amaze me that there are some women who believe that they have the privilege of dictating whether children should be allowed to live. It's as if those women perceive their children as their property, and not as human beings.
a. A woman owns her body.

b. A fetus is part of a woman's body until birth.

: : A woman owns the fetus inside her body until birth.


It never ceases to amaze me that some people think that because I'm a woman, my body belongs to everyone else but me.

In no other circumstance is a person entitled to the use of another person's body. It's even illegal to harvest the organs of corpses without prior consent. I do not reconize the "right" of any human to use my body regardless of their state of development.

The only way I'll ever get pregnant is if I get raped, and if I get raped and pregnant, I'm aborting the f_cking thing.


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