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Sand
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01 Dec 2010, 1:47 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
Philologos wrote:
"but that doesn't mean that atheism itself is an ideology."

Likely - would you not need an idea first?


Oh, you sly prof, you!


But of course! Rejection of the belief in witches, magic, fairies, ghosts Santa Clause and the Easter bunny is an ideology.



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01 Dec 2010, 2:16 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
Philologos wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Quite frankly, as a Canadian I am ashamed ....


Ah. NDP, by any chance?


YOU BETTCHA!!

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt144699.html


I am a conservative voter and am equally ashamed when I see religious nuts hailing from parts Canadian. At least where I hail from, conservatism doesn't equate fundamentalism.


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Philologos
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01 Dec 2010, 2:48 am

Fundamentalism is a parasitic mindset that is very catholic in its tastes. It will attach to and feed on any ideology whatsoever.



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01 Dec 2010, 3:11 am

To answer the OP, no.
Different people and different cultures have different needs for their personal and environmental well-being, and human well-being is better served by having many religious and/or philosophical choices to fit their individual circumstances.



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01 Dec 2010, 3:35 am

LKL wrote:
To answer the OP, no.
Different people and different cultures have different needs for their personal and environmental well-being, and human well-being is better served by having many religious and/or philosophical choices to fit their individual circumstances.


Not only that, but some people think there already IS one world religion if one focuses on the similarities instead of the differences between faiths. Some say there is and only ever has been one core spiritual teaching in most or even all the world's religions, expressed differently for different cultures and times, but that once such teachings are put into words they are corrupted and liable to misinterpretation because such teachings are ineffable, that is, they can't be talked about but only pointed to. The founders of some religions may even be so misunderstood that instead of getting the message some people get stuck on the details of the story or the storyteller and worship the messenger instead.

I am open to this idea being possible. I wrote a web page on my site called Ye are gods that shows how it is possible, for example, to interpret the Christian Bible from a Hindu viewpoint. Much of my reasoning was inspired by listening to many hours of seminars by the late "spiritual entertainer" Alan Watts. He was best known for explaining eastern philosophies to western audiences, but he also knew much of western philosophers and religions (he was a Christian minister too). He wrote many books, but I enjoy listening to him talk much more than reading his words. I don't agree with everything he said on every subject, but Alan Watts was very intelligent and is a blast to listen to!


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Last edited by TheBicyclingGuitarist on 01 Dec 2010, 3:57 am, edited 10 times in total.

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01 Dec 2010, 3:40 am

Philologos wrote:
Fundamentalism is a parasitic mindset that is very catholic in its tastes. It will attach to and feed on any ideology whatsoever.


Agreed. Much of the world's strife is due to people insisting that their way is the best or even the only way for everyone else. It isn't any particular religion that is the problem, but the fundamentalist style of interpretation applied to any religion. For some people, the fundamentalist style of interpretation is the only one they can grasp at their current level of awareness, but unfortunately because they are at that level they can't see the inherent limitations to it. It may be the only path for some people though, so for them when they say it is the only way they are correct, but in my opinion it only applies to those people. Of course I could be wrong!


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01 Dec 2010, 5:06 am

Philologos wrote:
Fundamentalism is a parasitic mindset that is very catholic in its tastes. It will attach to and feed on any ideology whatsoever.


Who said anything about Catholics?

While the largest religious group of my province is Catholic, it is below the national average, less than 25% of the people. Technically the largest group is "unaffiliated/none" at some 30%. These are not necessarily agnost/atheists, but by any definition not religious literalists. Of course most Canadian catholics and protestants are also moderate in their beliefs.

Fundamentalism in the religious right is more typically expressed in the revivalist protestant movements which had their heyday in the 1800s. Western Canada at that time was a wilderness sparsely populated by settlers engaged in sustenance level living. For instance as of 1901 there were barely 70,000 people in Alberta. That is not the sort of population density or design conductive to revivalist Christianity.

incidentally Saskatchewan had 90,000 people in 1901 and Master Pedants province started earlier (1870) with a population of 25,000.

So the Canadian west missed the first 2 of the 4 protestant great awakenings(1725-1750/1800-1840) and most of the third(1880-1910). During the late portion of the third it was being populated by people much more concerned with the earthly matter of getting enough food planted, houses built and enough land cleared. Religion, even among the fervent, comes second to eating.


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TheBicyclingGuitarist
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01 Dec 2010, 5:13 am

Fuzzy wrote:
Philologos wrote:
Fundamentalism is a parasitic mindset that is very catholic in its tastes. It will attach to and feed on any ideology whatsoever.


Who said anything about Catholics?



I think you misunderstand. He wasn't talking about the Catholic religion but was using the word according to the second of the two following definitions from the free Merriam-Webster online dictionary:

cath·o·lic
adj \ˈkath-lik, ˈka-thə-\
Definition of CATHOLIC
1
a often capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the church universal b often capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the ancient undivided Christian church or a church claiming historical continuity from it c capitalized : roman catholic
2
: comprehensive, universal; especially : broad in sympathies, tastes, or interests <a catholic taste in music>
— ca·thol·i·cal·ly\kə-ˈthä-li-k(ə-)lē\ adverb
— ca·thol·i·cize\-ˈthä-lə-ˌsīz\ verb


So a catholic taste in music means you like all music, or at least many different types. A Catholic taste in music (notice the capitalization of the word) would mean you like music associated with Roman Catholicism. Silly example but I hope it makes it clear!


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01 Dec 2010, 9:55 am

Fight, Fuzzy. Pardon a classical education and too much University time, which throughout life has led me to sometimes misunderstood word choices.

If I am referring to the Roman Catholic Church, I will usually leaver off Roman for brevity, but I will always unless my typing finger slips and I fail to catch it use UPPER CASE C.

catholic tastes - lower case = not too fussy

Catholic Liturgy - UPPER CASE = the Tridentine Mass or a modern translation.

You will not hear me railing against Catholics, though I cannot subscribe to all the doctrines requisite for inclusion. Some of my best friends and relatives, including many valued brethren..



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01 Dec 2010, 9:26 pm

Atheism is an ideology.

"An ideology is a set of ideas that constitutes one's goals, expectations, and actions. An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision, as a way of looking at things (compare worldview), as in common sense (see Ideology in everyday society below) and several philosophical tendencies (see Political ideologies), or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of a society to all members of this society (a "received consciousness" or product of socialization). The main purpose behind an ideology is to offer change in society, and adherence to a set of ideals where conformity already exists, through a normative thought process."

When Atheists believe that their view of the world is the truth, it causes them to judge other ideologies as wrong.

Agnostics philosophize more about spirituality than most religious people I know. Religious people have faith and so won't question so much. They have doubt, but from what I have seen, they don't philosophize about it. Atheists are materialists, they see matter and believe that only matter exists and have a faith in science that makes them unable to question the scientists. Even most scientists won't claim that there are no immaterial life forms. Seeing that most of the universe is comprised of immaterial energy (about 98 percent) it is possible that other life forms exist that we are unable to perceive with our basic 5 senses.

What is spirituality? Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or immaterial reality; an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

Looking back through history and seeing things in the world, I notice that most people have this innate spiritual aspect to them. To ignore it is like ignoring the elephant in the living room.



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01 Dec 2010, 10:06 pm

Philologos wrote:
Fight, Fuzzy. Pardon a classical education and too much University time, which throughout life has led me to sometimes misunderstood word choices.

If I am referring to the Roman Catholic Church, I will usually leaver off Roman for brevity, but I will always unless my typing finger slips and I fail to catch it use UPPER CASE C.

catholic tastes - lower case = not too fussy

Catholic Liturgy - UPPER CASE = the Tridentine Mass or a modern translation.

You will not hear me railing against Catholics, though I cannot subscribe to all the doctrines requisite for inclusion. Some of my best friends and relatives, including many valued brethren..


Ah, my apology. I was unfamiliar with that usage. I am now however. Thanks for the enlightenment.


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01 Dec 2010, 10:12 pm

Banned_Magnus wrote:
Atheism is an ideology.

"An ideology is a set of ideas that constitutes one's goals, expectations, and actions. An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision, as a way of looking at things (compare worldview), as in common sense (see Ideology in everyday society below) and several philosophical tendencies (see Political ideologies), or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of a society to all members of this society (a "received consciousness" or product of socialization). The main purpose behind an ideology is to offer change in society, and adherence to a set of ideals where conformity already exists, through a normative thought process."

When Atheists believe that their view of the world is the truth, it causes them to judge other ideologies as wrong.

Agnostics philosophize more about spirituality than most religious people I know. Religious people have faith and so won't question so much. They have doubt, but from what I have seen, they don't philosophize about it. Atheists are materialists, they see matter and believe that only matter exists and have a faith in science that makes them unable to question the scientists. Even most scientists won't claim that there are no immaterial life forms. Seeing that most of the universe is comprised of immaterial energy (about 98 percent) it is possible that other life forms exist that we are unable to perceive with our basic 5 senses.

There is no reason not to speculate on the existence of imperceptibles. But science can only deal with perceptibles. Atheists find it not useful to spend time trying to deal with things they cannot perceive. And people who distort their lives reacting to imperceptible things very frequently get caught up in psychotic behavior. It's a matter of being pragmatic.

What is spirituality? Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or immaterial reality; an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

Looking back through history and seeing things in the world, I notice that most people have this innate spiritual aspect to them. To ignore it is like ignoring the elephant in the living room.



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01 Dec 2010, 10:15 pm

Banned_Magnus wrote:
Agnostics philosophize more about spirituality than most religious people I know. Religious people have faith and so won't question so much.


I would agree with you on this. An idea that does not sit well with a person will be mulled over. A certain type of church sheep just accepts faith and gets on with life. Religion doesnt really get in the way of their lives, but nor does it effect much influence. According the premise of Christianity that probably rubs god the wrong way more than an agnost that worries about truth and consequences.

There is also a certain type of agnost that just says "eh, whatever", which is how my sister seems to be.


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01 Dec 2010, 10:25 pm

Well, then there are people who just don't care and go with whatever flow they choose. Your sister may be one of those apathetic types. Apathetic people don't have an ideology.



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01 Dec 2010, 10:29 pm

Banned_Magnus wrote:
Atheism is an ideology.

"An ideology is a set of ideas that constitutes one's goals, expectations, and actions. An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision, as a way of looking at things (compare worldview), as in common sense (see Ideology in everyday society below) and several philosophical tendencies (see Political ideologies), or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of a society to all members of this society (a "received consciousness" or product of socialization). The main purpose behind an ideology is to offer change in society, and adherence to a set of ideals where conformity already exists, through a normative thought process."

When Atheists believe that their view of the world is the truth, it causes them to judge other ideologies as wrong.


Atheism isn't a view of the world, it's the abscence of belief in God. As I said in my original response (which you failed utterly to address), anti-theism is an ideology but atheism is not as it really doesn't have any broad lenses when it comes to looking at the world. It's about as ideological as a-unicornism.

Banned_Magnus wrote:
Agnostics philosophize more about spirituality than most religious people I know. Religious people have faith and so won't question so much.


Once again, you offer absolutely no evidence for your "agnostics philosophize more about spirituality" thesis. Saying it twice doesn't make it true.

Banned_Magnus wrote:
Atheists are materialists, they see matter and believe that only matter exists


No. Atheists are those who lack a belief in God. That doesn't neccessarily imply physicalism, although (due to the many abductive and inductive arguments specific atheists use against God) many happen to also be physicalists.

Banned_Magnus wrote:
and have a faith in science that makes them unable to question the scientists. Even most scientists won't claim that there are no immaterial life forms. Seeing that most of the universe is comprised of immaterial energy (about 98 percent) it is possible that other life forms exist that we are unable to perceive with our basic 5 senses.


Actually, "materialism" is really just a vernaculur way of saying "physicalist", as most "materialists" would probably admit that matter isn't the only physical property in existence (although energy can be converted into matter, as Einstein demonstrated and you failed to mention).

And you pretty much contradict yourself by claiming that atheists never question scientists yet believe something most scientists don't. It's an almost trivally true fact, by the way, that a significant subset of atheists are scientists and these scientists question other scientists (so you claim that atheists never question scientists is patently false).

Banned_Magnus wrote:
What is spirituality? Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or immaterial reality; an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

Looking back through history and seeing things in the world, I notice that most people have this innate spiritual aspect to them. To ignore it is like ignoring the elephant in the living room.


A rather parsimonious explanation for "spirituality":

http://artsci.wustl.edu/~pboyer/PBoyerH ... nEssay.pdf

Pascal Boyer wrote:
In the past ten years, the evolutionary and
cognitive study of religion has begun to mature.
It does not try to identify the gene or genes for
religious thinking. Nor does it simply dream
up evolutionary scenarios that might have led
to religion as we know it. It does much better
than that. It puts forward new hypotheses and
testable predictions. It asks what in the human
make-up renders religion possible and successful.
Religious thought and behaviour can be
considered part of natural human capacities,
like music, political systems, family relations
or ethnic coalitions. Findings from cognitive
psychology, neuroscience, cultural anthropology
and archaeology


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01 Dec 2010, 10:39 pm

Quote:
Atheism isn't a view of the world, it's the abscence of belief in God. As I said in my original response (which you failed utterly to address), anti-theism is an ideology but atheism is not as it really doesn't have any broad lenses when it comes to looking at the world. It's about as ideological as a-unicornism.


Atheism doesn't have a perspective? There is a "scientific" world view. If not, do you entertain the idea that spirits exist? Do you consider that it is possible and have you tried to prove or disprove it yourself? If so, do you have the formula that you used to prove it? Do you believe in facts? Where do you get your facts? Do you have creative ideas that challenge these facts? Are you 100 percent sure that there is no God or spirts?

If you are certain that no spirits exist, that is a world view or ideology. If you don't care, you are apathetic and are unable to form an ideology based on the fact that you don't spend time thinking about this subject. Unicornism is a dismissive term used by Atheists who do not challenge their ideology and form their opinions based upon what is taught to be scientific facts. As we have learned from the past, facts often will get discarded when new information is brought to light.