To religious people. Will atheists go to hell or heaven?

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I just named it; you are willfully God-blind to everything that is around you.



Did Jesus want that? Or was He simply informing those He so bitterly accused of the damnation they were bringing upon themselves?

Now that's just childish. How old are you, anyway?

Or, as many other have suggested, are you the one who is willfully blind? No matter how many times you claim that there is proof, reality will not change to accomadate you; I wonder if you are trying to convince us, or yourself. If you are talking about the beauty and wonder of the world, every religion, and atheism to boot, provides an equally good or better explaination.




I don't think Jesus did, but I am beginning to think that it is possible you do, Third Servant. Lazy and Blind, hiding his treasure in the ground, behind anger and hubris. Ultimately serving no one, not even himself.

I actually don't like being this mean . I'm sure that you are a good person, if a bit caught up in your own religious fervour.

For me, the point is rather moot.

Religious authorities that suggest a paradise of some sort, typically present it as a reward for any number of acts it considers "good". In the case of Christianity, the acts listed as "good" usually match up with acts most people intuitively accept as good (e.g. not stealing), which makes it easier to accept other ritual requirements (e.g. baptism, communion), which are less intuitive, on sheer authority. But what if we consider an absurd experiement:

Imagine that the rules have switched around. Heaven is now the reward for any number of acts you now intuitively consider "bad". And Hell is now the reward acts you now intuitively consider "good". How would you live your life? Would you commit any number of acts that cause pain and suffering in others just to get your own selfish reward?

Personally, I would still perform "good" acts despite the threat of eternal damnation. So, if the promise of one fate or another won't affect my behavior, what does it even matter to me? And if there IS no God (a la Pascal's Wager), then I will at LEAST have lived a good life. It seems a conviction on the existance of Heaven and Hell is either irrelevant to moral decision or is fundamentally flawed.

Typically, when I hear someone go on about brimstone, I tune them out. I don't need to be threatened or bribed into leading a good life, and I question the authority of anyone who has to rely on threats and bribes to convince others. This simplistic and barbaric system of punishment and reward reeks more of mankind's cruelty, than the patient, forgiving, wise voice I associate with the divine.

That's blasphemy. Blasphemy isn't something Christians joke or maske idle speech about it. You need to be slapped.

Likewise.



Neither. You are clearly not going to be convinced, whereas I am fully convinced;
therefore, I argue my principles with you only for the other readers' sakes.



Yes they do, but I am not speaking only of the beauty and wonder of the world (which many atheists and Darwinists deny, by the way),
but of what I mentioned earlier: that history, up to and including the present, always bares witness to the God Yahweh,
specifically to His character.



I am a faithful servant of the Lord, though I am far from perfect.



"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
(John 8:43-44)

Last edited by Ragtime on 02 Jun 2008, 11:41 am, edited 5 times in total.

Blasphemy? LOLZ I'm looking, but I'm not seeing anyone being blasphemous.

Obviously you've never been beaten.

If you're an atheist, why do you care?

More obviously you're no good at definitions or reading comprehension and have an abusive streak.

Where was the contemptuous or profane writing? No where.




That depends on the religion and further more on the sect. For some Heaven is being near God, Heaven is where God resides. Hell is separation from God, not a particular place full of fire and brimstone, just separate from God. For others Heaven is a physical paradise. Hell is a place God made for Satan and his demons only(So if you don't get into heaven you won't go to hell) or Hell is a place God made for Satan, his demons, and all of the trillions of people God rejects. The ways of attaining either vary from good works(Your beliefs wouldn't matter, just do good), to faith(Just believe), and to predetermination(God has already decided who will go where, you have no choice), to a blend of any and all of them. They are all technically in the bible.

I'm an agnostic btw.

Last edited by mikebw on 02 Jun 2008, 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Denying God is blasphemy:



Denial omits reverence.

That is the silliest thing I have ever heard.

The notion of blasphemy is itself absurd. It's reminiscent of the days where people were converted at sword point. I at least have enough moral fiber to believe what I believe of my own free will - and not because somebody carrying a bible is threatening me with violence. I mean, the figure of Jesus did the same thing! He had his own convictions, and was willing to stand in the face of the authorities (religious and otherwise) who put him to death. How can a follower of Jesus' example turn around and enforce religion with violence? That's just absurd!

I cannot imagine Jesus responding to a question - even one that bordered on "blasphemy" - with more than a calm voice, a smile, and a really convincing answer. People with solid beliefs and stable minds aren't threatened by questioning - they invite it. I cannot imagine Jesus and the disciples donning brass knuckles and pummeling the questioner into thoughtless obedience.

That aside, I have no problem with God or Jesus. It's not my intention to slander either. However, Christians themselves, and the Christian Bible, have a mixed track record - and so I expect them to stand up to serious questioning. FYI, threatening to slap people for blasphemy makes Christianity look really flimsy, and it makes its followers look like violent morons. And that's a shame, because so many of them are better than that.

Did Tharn deny God? I didn't see that anywhere.

If there is a God, and there is a Heaven, and I presume you intend to live what you consider a good life... I would say your admittance would rely heavily on what sort of being God is. And the only way you can know what sort of being God is, is either through personal experience or on the authority of others - directly or through their writing. Sadly, most religions that claim a paradise like to reserve it for their own followers. No matter which one (if any) you believe, someone somewhere will be convinced you're gonna be punished eternally for not agreeing with them.

Personally, I think that a good God would look well upon an Athiest who tried hard to live a good life, and respond in kind with compassion. (God: "Surprise! I do exist!" Athiest:"Oh cool! You proved me wrong LOLZ" God:"You seem like a good fellah. Wanna come inside, and I'll make you a sandwich?") I don't think I could accept a God who would dole out eternal punishment to people who had lived a good life, but had simply had the misfortune not to pick the right book - damned on a technicality. It seems clumsy, arbitrary, and unnecessarily cruel - qualities that run contrary to my intuitive understanding of a compassionate and wise God.

If you are interested in some rather unconventional thoughts about the afterlife, I'd gladly share mine, Mr. Bogan. Feel free to send me a private message.

Yes. He denies who God proclaimed Himself to be in His Holy Word.

But for the record, Tharn, do you believe in the God of the Bible? A simple "yes" will saffice.



Wait, no need, it's clear you are denying God.
Psalm 14:1 and 53:1 both say "The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God.'"

Last edited by Ragtime on 02 Jun 2008, 2:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Ragtime -

I deny that the things in the Christian Bible are the word of God simply because they're between the two covers. Whatever was once divinely inspired and placed in that volume has since been interpreted and edited for so long and for so many reasons, I feel I owe it to God to exercise discression while reading it. If the only flavor of God you accept as being possible, is the one described in a literalist interpretation of your favorite version of the Bible, then I suppose YOU would consider me as denying God. I can't say that your opinion (and what you presume to be God's judgement) keeps me up at night.

"If there is a God, ..."

Phrases like this are used all the time when outlining a conditional argument. Saying "If it rains tomorrow," does not state a conviction that it will NOT rain tomorrow - merely that one is humoring the possibility that it may not rain, and considering its implications - which may or may not support the questioned premise.

If questioning the existence of God, instead of just taking it on blind faith, is some sort of terrible sin, then color me guilty. Personally, I believe curiousity strengthens faith. And so does having the humility to always consider you may be mistaken. There are many good and influential people of all faiths who have believed the same, and I'm glad to consider myself in their number. God gave me a brain of my own; and I intend to use it, thanks.