The Church (In General) & Aspies

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Shalom Nate! I am active within Messianic Judaism in my local community and I'm learning to be more social. Both my wife and I rank high on the Autism Quotient and there are many who do not understand how the two of us can not just follow along like ducks in a row to what the group norm is. My wife has no desire to speak with the women in the congregation about who is having a baby, who is getting married, recipes, the latest fashion on how to tie head-scarfs, etc. It drives her crazy that the other women continue to want to discuss such things with her. She has several "special interests" and none of them are things that the average NT woman wants to talk about.

Of the two of us, I have learned to become more out-going over the past several years. Mostly because I was appointed to a position which requires me to get up in front of the congregation and speak every week. (My "little professor" tendencies come into play here.)



I'm the congregational chazen (cantor) at one small synagogue, I teach a Shabbat school class for the Bat and Bar Mitzvah candidates and I also teach a Torah class at that congregation and another synagogue. My ability at pattern recognition helps with finding additonal insights into the Biblical narratives. But, up until being given these additional responsibilities I would hang out against the back wall, and not speak much to anyone.

I've found that I can be more sociable as long as I can make "group identification" with the people I am with. So, I can be within my comfort zone within the Messianic Community, no matter what city I happen to visit. But if I can't make "group identification" I still feel very socially awkward. So large business conferences, noisy restaurants, crowded stores, etc all make me very uncomfortable, since I don't see myself as being part of that community.



No, neither congregation has anything in place that would deal specifically with those on the Autism spectrum. There is a Amersign ministry for those who are deaf, but I'm not involved with that.



As opposed to??? Why would I only be partially honest on such questions?

I know where your wife is coming from here! Do either of your special interests include religion? It sounds like that's a "yes" for you.



I think you have a great advantage with Judaism in that there is a more introspective component that is probably more comforable for Aspies to take part in than Christian outreach and evangelization, which involves a lot of logistics and talking to strangers with a particular agenda in mind.



Also the feeling of group identification one can feel anywhere -- I am envious!

Some people in my (Lutheran) church know I'm an Aspie and everyone is friendly to me...they are very friendly and understanding in asking me to come to youth group and go on trips with them.

I think there are three issues in regard to this question: 1) our ability to socialize, in general; 2) attitudes of some Christians towards mental health (or health in general); and 3) services.

Asperger's has really helped me to understand how I interact in regard to the above 3.

1) Let's face it; the basic thing of Asperger's is social skills. Church is no different than school, office, etc. You're expected to fit in with the group. If you can't ,you either have to cope with being an outcast, or you have to fnid someplace else

2) A lot of Christians, especially "spirit fliled' Christians, walk aroound with the idea that illness is a sign of sin. "If you really believed, Jesus would heal you." We went to a retreat last spring that turned out to be Charismatic. I commented that I have allergy attacks any time I spend more than one night in a hotel. The woman said, "ALlegies are mostly psychosomatic." Then she proceeded to try and "fix" me. The conference speaker had spent most of the time talking about organic food, when i was hoping for talk about spirituality. So she was telling me I needed to eat organic food, adn pray more, and thi sand that. I said that I believe God heals, but that our faith should be based upon acceptannce and not seeking out miracles. I also said i believe in the god old Catholic principle of self-sacrifice and offering up suffering.
She said, "That's what men say, because they don't trust the Holy Spirit."
Then I quoted a couple Saints, and I said, "When i was diagnosed with Marfan syndrome at the age of 2, the life expectancy for males was 20. I had open heart surgery at 19, and now I'm 30. A post-operative Marfan can hvae an aortic dissection at any time, with no warning. I am fully aware that I'm living on God's time. I look forward to dying and going to Heaven. I don't really care if some food I eat might cause me to die of cancer at 80 when I'm probably not gonna live to be 40. I also know every day is a miracle, so I don't need to go hunting them out."
That left her speechless.

So, you get those kinds of people. And then you get the ones who deny mental helath issure are anything more than moral issues, or demonic possession, tec. (I believe those are factors in most mentla health issues, but I also believe that there are fundamental genetic traits involved).

In our old town, most of the homescoholing, ultra-traditional Catholics we knew fell in that camp. I taught at a school founded by former homescoholers, and I was the only one on the faculty who acknowledged that ADHD was a real conditoin.

We've been blessed that our current homeschool group is not like that. They are into organic foods and alternative health and stuff, but they are balanced on it. Most of them have at lesat one kid in counseling for something or other. They openly talk about their kids' meds for ADHD and other stuff, psych appointments, etc. I am very open with them about my Asperger's.

3) Last spring there was a big internet brouhaha over a family being in a big conflict with their Catholic pastor over their autistic son's behavior at Mass. One thing I've discovered is that my Aspperger's makes me a traditionalist. Now that I understand autistic rage, I understand why I get so mad at certain situations at Church. When I go to a "hippie Mass," as I call it, I feel incredibly overstimulated and disoriented.

When I go to a traditional liturgy (whether Latin, Byzantine or Syriac--I like experimenting with different Rites) or even just a "really conservative"/"neo-traditoinal" liturgy, I feel a great sense of peace: everything is orderly, predictable and more relaxed. I am not bombarded with sensory input, and I am not put on the spot by pepole who want to 'glad-hand" me at the Sign of Peace or something.

At a traditinoal Latin mass, I am free to just shut myself off in meditation, and I don't have to focus on anyone in the room except my kids. And since my wief has lonog since given up on trying to attend TLM with me and bring the kids, I usually only bring our oldest daughter, who behaves well.

You are correct that religion is one of my special interests is religion. Although, phrasing it that way makes it sound much more general than what is true. I'm not interested in religion in general, my interest in (and knowledge of) Buddhism, and other "eastern" religions is fairly small. Likewise, my interest in Islam (although, due to the bullying aspect of Islam vs Judaism I have a bit more interest). So my interests in religion are pretty much confined to the Biblical Judaism that is found in the Hebrew Scriptures, and in the great differences and similarities between the various sects of Judaism of 2000 years ago and in how Christianity evolved into a non-Jewish religion so rapidly after the 3rd century.

My wife has a special interest in Biblical archaelogy and ancient middle eastern history. She can rattle off the various Egyptian dynasties of Pharaohs off the top of her head, etc. So it makes it a good fit between the two of us when I need to verify a point about which Pharaoh was probably in power when Moses was born, etc.



Yeah, I can't imagine going door to door like the JW's or Mormons and trying to approach total strangers to foist my religious views off on them. That would be WAY outside my comfort zone!

On the other hand, when they coming knocking on my door, I have no objection to talking to them even though they are strangers. They are now on "my turf" and I have "homefield advantage". My "little professor" within does tend to come popping out for a talk with those who show up at my door. With my knowledge of the Biblical Feast Days and how they reflect into historical events as well as future prophetic events, I get the people at my door so far off their "script" so rapidly that they are left floundering. My wife says that I like "to twist their brains".

Yes, the Jewish approach is more introspective than the Christian approach. Christians like to have one and only one meaning from each passage of Scripture. Whereas our approach doesn't mind the fact that one passage can have slightly different literal meanings, plus symbolic and comparative meanings, plus hidden meanings - all of which can be similtaneously true. Hebrew words have numeric values and you can take other Hebrew words and phrases with the same numeric value and insert them as a replacement into the narrative and find additional insight. Such an approach drives the Christians crazy. The Greek mindset has trouble taking conflicting meanings and holding them in tension against one another to begin to grasp the universal Truth that is out there. They haven't even begun to understand what is meant by "Alpha and Omega" (in Hebrew "Aleph and Tav") and what it means and how it applies.

First, unless Aleph and Tav have a popular meaning in Hebrew, it may have NOTHING to do with the passage, which was originally in GREEK. If it were from hebrew, wouldn't it STILL be alph and tav? EVEN TODAY, we have sayings in English that mean nothing in themselves because they come so directly from the past. Second, what do YOU think it means?

THIRD, what about all the hebrew rabbis that argue endlessly over THE meaning of a passage? AND, if there WERE so many multiple meanings, what is the point of the torah, etc....?

Aleph and Tav absolutely have a very deep meaning in Hebrew. And whether the original autograph of the NT text of Revelation was written in Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew really isn't the point. John (who wrote down Revelation) spoke all three languages. He heard the voice saying "I AM the Aleph and Tav/Alpha & Omega" and the voice was certainly of one who spoke Hebrew, gave the Torah in Hebrew, etc.



Not necessarily. If as the translator you are attempting to convey "the beginning and the end" concept, then you will pick the first and last letters of the Alphabet that the reader uses. Which is why there are English translations that render this as "I am the A and the Z".



Sure. For example you will still find people who say "not one iota" even though the last King James Version that said "iota" in Matthew 5:18 was the 1611. (The 1769 revision which most people have as the KJV says "jot").



Too long of a discussion for here (and way off topic). Google the phrase "aleph and tav" (in quotes) and start reading.



You have to break that down into the various reasons why they would argue over a particular meaning. In most cases the argument was over "Am I serving God correctly if I obey this command in this manner versus that manner?" It is good that they wanted to be correct in their interpretation.



The multiple meanings always are to add to our general understanding, they don't take away from it.

For example, today is the last day of Chanukah. Chanukah in Hebrew is a 5 letter word that means "dedication". The first 2 letters by themselves spell "Chein" which means "rest". The first 3 letters by themselves spell either Chano "His rest" or Chanu "Their rest". The last 2 letter spell CHOH which means "thus", "in this way", etc. So from this we learn that we truly enter into the true nature of the dedication of our lives when we enter into "His rest in this manner". We stop fighting for the personal desires of our evil inclination and enter into His desire for our lives.

You will find Chanukah specifically mentioned in John 10:22 (specifically translated this way in the newest NIV - footnoted in this way in the earlier versions of the NIV).

u know in here we have writing in history and goat said go though frozen lake if ice cracks jesus saves u -i dont believe he saves i go around the lake and he has saved me

From my point of view, every aspect of the term religion, is just another way to try to control ppl and get a greater income on what money concerns. In my point of view, every religion is commiting a crime, both against ppl and second against God himself. God created all people to be free Not to be controlled by some maniac, in any sence of the word.

Sorry, can't help myself.

That's not The Church; THIS is The Church:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8RLGgWlF7k&feature=related[/youtube]

The Church - Tear It All Away (1981)


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idiYlpx6Y2o[/youtube]

The Church - Constant In Opal

^ I guess this one could be about what it's like to be an aspie.

Here's another piece of evidence pertaining to The Church's view of aspies:

The Church - A Different Man

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox3npPy2tWs&feature=related[/youtube]

Is it the missing limb that makes you a cynical asshat?

Not in particular fan of these guys, cant seem to find any particular phrases in any of their songs, related to AS. A few decent tunes, though.

I never thought that even you would sink so low as to make a personal attack on an amputee for having a realistic opinion.

Just a joke I couldn't stop myself from posting. I'm not a huge Church fan either, but I don't mind them, and music is my main obsession.

I agree with you, Fnord. That comment served no obvious function other than insult and attempted provocation directed at you and not your point of view (for all we know, based on his words, he agrees with what you said but dislikes you personally).

There is always the option of critiquing the words someone posted instead of simply attempting to insult the individual.