What Would Happen if the Right to Bear Arms was Taken Away.

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aghogday
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25 Apr 2011, 3:56 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
aghogday wrote:
This scenario is assuming that it would be understood by the majority of the American public that the anarchy was bad and the confiscation of guns was a necessary measure to reduce danger as a whole.
What widespread danger does banning "assault weapons" based on nothing more than cosmetic features reduce? It's like banning big spoilers, fart cans, body kits, and stickers from Honda Civics cuz they make the car look like they have 500 hp.

Pistol grips do not make it easier to empty clips from hips. First off, your stance and your shoulder weld (putting the buttstock of the gun against your shoulder) are the biggest factors to reducing recoil, which is why new shooters are always told to lean forward into the gun. Secondly, militaries even train their soldiers to use semi-auto while clearing rooms. Thirdly, no one is gonna hit sh** spraying from the hip so it's smarter to either use the sights or spray from the shoulder. They also say pistol grips allow you to shoot one handed. What kinda dumbass uses one hand to shoot a rifle with?

Also they wanna ban flash suppressors cuz apparently they make muzzle flashes more concealable at night. A muzzle flash is a muzzle flash, a Y shaped one isn't any harder to see than a regular one.

Pistols are used in 90-95% of shootings (I don't remember the exact statistic but it's somwhere around there) which make sense since crooks need a gun they not only have quick access to, but one they can easily dispose of.

Based on these facts, it's reasonable to believe that either the people making the laws dunno sh** about guns (Carolyn McCarthy ROFL) or they have an agenda.

aghogday wrote:
Do conspiracy beliefs, in themselves, pose a potential danger to the country as a whole?
Ridiculous gun control laws are revenue generating streams at best and tyranny at worst. In Canada you have to pay $60 each year to renew your gun licence and they have ridiculous tax stamps in the states.


This is a fictious scenario, of what ifs; in this scenario all guns would be banned and confiscated. It also assumes a major change would have to precipitate the majority of Americans supporting such an action. Personally, I don't think it would ever happen, but I can't see into the future.



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25 Apr 2011, 4:12 pm

ManBearPig wrote:
The Bill Of Rights and Civil Rgihts are not at the "whim of the majority". As a matter-of-fact, the Bill Of Rights and our Civil Rights, such as Free Speech, is there to protect all rights, even those hated by the majority. It's the reason that people can burn American flags, even though most people in America are against it. It doesn't matter for two craps if the majority of America were ok with disarming people, that little matter doesn't get around that there is a 2nd Amendment. That's what the Bill Of Rights is in this country; it's set in stone. We don't get to change it everytime the American people get a new flavor of the month feeling regarding this or that right, and the process to amend the constitution is all but impossible (especially in this politically biased climate). You'd never get 3/4ths of the States to vote "yes" to amend the Constitution on guns or anything else for that matter; to political in today's world.

The bottom line is, the gun lobby owns Congress, both sides (either in GOP or in Blue Dogs) and owns the Supreme Court. We can pretty much do whatever we want and the anti-gunners can't do a damn thing about it. They'll never reverse Heller or MacDonald, because the SCOTUS doesn't just up and reverse it's decisions everytime a new majority takes place; that's not how it works. And we have at least a few more years or so to squeeze out even more 5-4 2nd Amendment decisions in our favor before a majority switch happens. And when a switch on the SCOTUS does happen, the worst that will happen is the gun side will stop bringing cases before the court. Because unlike the anti-gun side, we are smart enough to know not to bring gun cases to a SCOTUS that is sure to rule against us. Whereas the anti-gun side are so stupid, so stubborn, and so aroggant, they keep fighting all these gun cases to a SCOTUS that they damn well KNOW is going to rule AGAINST them in a 5-4 decision. The anti-gun side has nobody but themselves to blame for the recent victories; all because of their constant foot dragging and fighting tooth and nail to keep their draconian gun laws.


I'm not suggesting this will ever happen. It could never happen in our political climate and would never happen unless there were catastrophic circumstances that would lead to such an action. And, personally, I don't see a need for it to happen, as things stand now. My father is a gun collector and he would stand to lose a fortune, if this were to happen, as many others would.

The question is what would happen, if it did happen. What if circumstances were dire enough where the support needed to actually change the constitution did happen. How would the minority that didn't support the decision respond. Would they accept the will of the majority of the country, in this ficticious scenario, or would they take action against it?



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25 Apr 2011, 6:28 pm

aghogday wrote:
ManBearPig wrote:
The Bill Of Rights and Civil Rgihts are not at the "whim of the majority". As a matter-of-fact, the Bill Of Rights and our Civil Rights, such as Free Speech, is there to protect all rights, even those hated by the majority. It's the reason that people can burn American flags, even though most people in America are against it. It doesn't matter for two craps if the majority of America were ok with disarming people, that little matter doesn't get around that there is a 2nd Amendment. That's what the Bill Of Rights is in this country; it's set in stone. We don't get to change it everytime the American people get a new flavor of the month feeling regarding this or that right, and the process to amend the constitution is all but impossible (especially in this politically biased climate). You'd never get 3/4ths of the States to vote "yes" to amend the Constitution on guns or anything else for that matter; to political in today's world.

The bottom line is, the gun lobby owns Congress, both sides (either in GOP or in Blue Dogs) and owns the Supreme Court. We can pretty much do whatever we want and the anti-gunners can't do a damn thing about it. They'll never reverse Heller or MacDonald, because the SCOTUS doesn't just up and reverse it's decisions everytime a new majority takes place; that's not how it works. And we have at least a few more years or so to squeeze out even more 5-4 2nd Amendment decisions in our favor before a majority switch happens. And when a switch on the SCOTUS does happen, the worst that will happen is the gun side will stop bringing cases before the court. Because unlike the anti-gun side, we are smart enough to know not to bring gun cases to a SCOTUS that is sure to rule against us. Whereas the anti-gun side are so stupid, so stubborn, and so aroggant, they keep fighting all these gun cases to a SCOTUS that they damn well KNOW is going to rule AGAINST them in a 5-4 decision. The anti-gun side has nobody but themselves to blame for the recent victories; all because of their constant foot dragging and fighting tooth and nail to keep their draconian gun laws.


I'm not suggesting this will ever happen. It could never happen in our political climate and would never happen unless there were catastrophic circumstances that would lead to such an action. And, personally, I don't see a need for it to happen, as things stand now. My father is a gun collector and he would stand to lose a fortune, if this were to happen, as many others would.

The question is what would happen, if it did happen. What if circumstances were dire enough where the support needed to actually change the constitution did happen. How would the minority that didn't support the decision respond. Would they accept the will of the majority of the country, in this ficticious scenario, or would they take action against it?


Anything like anarchy or whatever other rationale the government (with or without a majority consent) comes up with to ban all private gun ownership would meet disaster in this day and age. During times of that kind of crisis the people most need to be armed for the obvious reasons of self preservation. The cops can't even do much to protect anyone in the relatively peaceful society we live in now.
Factor in widespread anarchy and what all that brings and law enforcement coverage will be non-existent for all practical purposes even with the help of the National Guard and/or regular military.
As far as the "will of the majority of the country" go it's not the choice of the majority to make.
What I'm going to say next is going to sound internet commando-ish but I'll say it anyway.
My right to own guns (for any reason) and protect my life and liberty are worth fighting and dying for and it is a growing sentiment in the USA at the time.
I hope this answers your question.



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25 Apr 2011, 6:39 pm

Raptor wrote:
aghogday wrote:
ManBearPig wrote:
The Bill Of Rights and Civil Rgihts are not at the "whim of the majority". As a matter-of-fact, the Bill Of Rights and our Civil Rights, such as Free Speech, is there to protect all rights, even those hated by the majority. It's the reason that people can burn American flags, even though most people in America are against it. It doesn't matter for two craps if the majority of America were ok with disarming people, that little matter doesn't get around that there is a 2nd Amendment. That's what the Bill Of Rights is in this country; it's set in stone. We don't get to change it everytime the American people get a new flavor of the month feeling regarding this or that right, and the process to amend the constitution is all but impossible (especially in this politically biased climate). You'd never get 3/4ths of the States to vote "yes" to amend the Constitution on guns or anything else for that matter; to political in today's world.

The bottom line is, the gun lobby owns Congress, both sides (either in GOP or in Blue Dogs) and owns the Supreme Court. We can pretty much do whatever we want and the anti-gunners can't do a damn thing about it. They'll never reverse Heller or MacDonald, because the SCOTUS doesn't just up and reverse it's decisions everytime a new majority takes place; that's not how it works. And we have at least a few more years or so to squeeze out even more 5-4 2nd Amendment decisions in our favor before a majority switch happens. And when a switch on the SCOTUS does happen, the worst that will happen is the gun side will stop bringing cases before the court. Because unlike the anti-gun side, we are smart enough to know not to bring gun cases to a SCOTUS that is sure to rule against us. Whereas the anti-gun side are so stupid, so stubborn, and so aroggant, they keep fighting all these gun cases to a SCOTUS that they damn well KNOW is going to rule AGAINST them in a 5-4 decision. The anti-gun side has nobody but themselves to blame for the recent victories; all because of their constant foot dragging and fighting tooth and nail to keep their draconian gun laws.


I'm not suggesting this will ever happen. It could never happen in our political climate and would never happen unless there were catastrophic circumstances that would lead to such an action. And, personally, I don't see a need for it to happen, as things stand now. My father is a gun collector and he would stand to lose a fortune, if this were to happen, as many others would.

The question is what would happen, if it did happen. What if circumstances were dire enough where the support needed to actually change the constitution did happen. How would the minority that didn't support the decision respond. Would they accept the will of the majority of the country, in this ficticious scenario, or would they take action against it?


Anything like anarchy or whatever other rationale the government (with or without a majority consent) comes up with to ban all private gun ownership would meet disaster in this day and age. During times of that kind of crisis the people most need to be armed for the obvious reasons of self preservation. The cops can't even do much to protect anyone in the relatively peaceful society we live in now.
Factor in widespread anarchy and what all that brings and law enforcement coverage will be non-existent for all practical purposes even with the help of the National Guard and/or regular military.
As far as the "will of the majority of the country" go it's not the choice of the majority to make.
What I'm going to say next is going to sound internet commando-ish but I'll say it anyway.
My right to own guns (for any reason) and protect my life and liberty are worth fighting and dying for and it is a growing sentiment in the USA at the time.
I hope this answers your question.


Yes, I've heard this many times before in relationship to gun ownership, and there is no doubt in my mind that people would be willing to die to keep their rights to own guns regardless of the reason that someone had to try to take them away. Other than the fear of losing gun ownership, is there any other reason people feel like their life and liberty are at stake now, in relationship to the government?

And finally, while I don't personally think that the second ammendment would be changed, do you see a possibility of the government trying to do this, sometime in the future? I know that some people are really afraid that the government might try to take their guns or ban the sale of guns, and they believe it could happen at anytime.



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25 Apr 2011, 6:59 pm

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Other than the fear of losing gun ownership, is there any other reason people feel like their life and liberty are at stake now, in relationship to the government?


Theoretically your life and liberty are always at stake. Most of us, including me, don't harp on it or let it control our lives but history shows us that the threat is real enough to at least keep in mind.
I'm not talking about government sponsored genocide but more along the lines of potential loss of life and/or liberty facilitated by government carelessness and indifference.



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25 Apr 2011, 7:07 pm

Raptor wrote:
Quote:
Other than the fear of losing gun ownership, is there any other reason people feel like their life and liberty are at stake now, in relationship to the government?


Theoretically your life and liberty are always at stake. Most of us, including me, don't harp on it or let it control our lives but history shows us that the threat is real enough to at least keep in mind.
I'm not talking about government sponsored genocide but more along the lines of potential loss of life and/or liberty facilitated by government carelessness and indifference.


I agree that your life and liberty are always at stake, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the government. With guns a person is able to protect their life and liberty from armed intruders into their home, but they don't get to do it with the IRS or any other government institution that they personally feel is invading their liberty, when done under legal authority.

Just for my own clarification, what kind of government carelessness and indifference would present a need for people to take up arms against the government?



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25 Apr 2011, 8:09 pm

aghogday wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
aghogday wrote:
This scenario is assuming that it would be understood by the majority of the American public that the anarchy was bad and the confiscation of guns was a necessary measure to reduce danger as a whole.
What widespread danger does banning "assault weapons" based on nothing more than cosmetic features reduce? It's like banning big spoilers, fart cans, body kits, and stickers from Honda Civics cuz they make the car look like they have 500 hp.

Pistol grips do not make it easier to empty clips from hips. First off, your stance and your shoulder weld (putting the buttstock of the gun against your shoulder) are the biggest factors to reducing recoil, which is why new shooters are always told to lean forward into the gun. Secondly, militaries even train their soldiers to use semi-auto while clearing rooms. Thirdly, no one is gonna hit sh** spraying from the hip so it's smarter to either use the sights or spray from the shoulder. They also say pistol grips allow you to shoot one handed. What kinda dumbass uses one hand to shoot a rifle with?

Also they wanna ban flash suppressors cuz apparently they make muzzle flashes more concealable at night. A muzzle flash is a muzzle flash, a Y shaped one isn't any harder to see than a regular one.

Pistols are used in 90-95% of shootings (I don't remember the exact statistic but it's somwhere around there) which make sense since crooks need a gun they not only have quick access to, but one they can easily dispose of.

Based on these facts, it's reasonable to believe that either the people making the laws dunno sh** about guns (Carolyn McCarthy ROFL) or they have an agenda.

aghogday wrote:
Do conspiracy beliefs, in themselves, pose a potential danger to the country as a whole?
Ridiculous gun control laws are revenue generating streams at best and tyranny at worst. In Canada you have to pay $60 each year to renew your gun licence and they have ridiculous tax stamps in the states.


This is a fictious scenario, of what ifs; in this scenario all guns would be banned and confiscated. It also assumes a major change would have to precipitate the majority of Americans supporting such an action. Personally, I don't think it would ever happen, but I can't see into the future.
Oh sorry dude I just kinda jumped on that. I highly doubt it'll happen since it is so deeply ingrained in the culture.



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25 Apr 2011, 8:39 pm

There are so many guns out there that they could not possibly collect them all if outlawed. Half of my guns do not have serial numbers and are not traceable to me. So they wouldn't even know they should be collecting them.

(lack of serial numbers and non-traceability are not for criminal reasons. They are workable antiques.)



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25 Apr 2011, 10:05 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
aghogday wrote:
ManBearPig wrote:
I think the ironic thing about the world some anti-gun extremists want to create, is that it would be far more violent than the one we have now. Think about it:

1) If all guns are illegal, then you have to either turn your guns in or keep them hidden forever. A lot of people would keep at least some of their guns because they value their life and the lives of their family in case of a break in, but that will now make them criminals in the eyes of the anti-gunners.

2) If all guns are illegal, you can't use your guns in self-defense. If a criminal breaks in your home, you can't hold them at gun point until the police arrive, because the police will put you in jail for life for having a gun in the first place. You also can't let the criminal go because they might tell someone about your guns and then you'd go to jail for the rest of your life. So that only leaves one option. Anyone who breaks into your home has to die and you have to dump the body Soprano's style, not-to-mention that you'd have to break another federal law by constructing illegal silencers for any guns you plan to use to defend your home from criminals, as you would want to lessen the chance of anyone hearing the shot when you defend your home. The only thing in your favor here is that you'd be harder to catch, as killing someone who randomly breaks into your house is like killing a complete stranger; which is much harder to solve than someone who kills a friend, neighbor, lover, or ex-lover.

3) So in the anti-gunner's world, they've taken people who would have otherwise gone the rest of their lives as law-abidding, and turned them into criminals over night for keeping property the anti-gunners find distasteful, turned them into law breakers for constructing illegal silencers, and turned them into premediated murderers who dump bodies in order to defend their lives and the lives of their families, all in the name of hating the 2nd Amendment and the right to self-defense with a firearm. Way to go anti-gunners, way to go.


Guns are a huge part of our culture. There is no chance they will be taken away, unless there was a drastic change in our country, like anarchy, or another country establishing rule over us


If another country would actually dare try, we're the most heavily armed nation in the world.
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I'd like to put my rifle between her blades of glass



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25 Apr 2011, 10:09 pm

^(Misattributed)


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25 Apr 2011, 10:17 pm

While I tend to vote towards the left on many issues, gun control is one where I sit on the far right.

If more citizens were allowed to legally carry guns, some of the massacres used by anti-gun nuts as rhetorical devices could have been nipped in the bud. Nowadays, with all the smart weapons, robots and lasers, having a simple firearm really doesn't pose much of a threat to the government. Even if we wanted to take the government down, it wouldn't work unless we had the military refusing to fire on their own people. So the right to bear arms as a means of keeping the government in check is pretty much bogus, in my opinion.

For defending oneself from criminals though, that's where it makes a difference. Sure you can call the police, but you will be raped or murdered before they get there. Now when toddlers get hold of parent's guns and accidentally shoot themselves, siblings, or others, that's bad. But that's why if you have guns you need to train your kids young to respect them. Back in the day, hundreds of years past, firearms were part of daily life for survival some places. You can bet that children were taught about them, and toddlers watched carefully. It is tragic whenever a kid uses a gun on purpose or accidentally to hurt or kill someone, but that's no reason to outlaw guns.

The laws suggesting that one keep one's gun locked up and the ammo locked up separately are stupid though. Do you think an intruder is going to patiently wait when you ask, "Pardon me while I unlock my gun cabinet and load my firearm?" No, it is on the parents to teach their children to not mess with guns, or if they do mess with them, how to aim and hit your target. That's my opinion FWIW.


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25 Apr 2011, 10:20 pm

TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
If more citizens were allowed to legally carry guns, some of the massacres used by anti-gun nuts as rhetorical devices could have been nipped in the bud.


Aren't guns already allowed? Or do you think that for example, teens should carry guns with them in their schools to prevent those massacres?

Hey, I don't think it is beneficial at all to ban guns, but I do think you should have a license, just like with cars. In anyway, illegalizing guns wouldn't prevent massacres but I cannot really agree with the notion that making them more easily available would help people stop massacres...


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25 Apr 2011, 10:21 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
aghogday wrote:
ManBearPig wrote:
I think the ironic thing about the world some anti-gun extremists want to create, is that it would be far more violent than the one we have now. Think about it:

1) If all guns are illegal, then you have to either turn your guns in or keep them hidden forever. A lot of people would keep at least some of their guns because they value their life and the lives of their family in case of a break in, but that will now make them criminals in the eyes of the anti-gunners.

2) If all guns are illegal, you can't use your guns in self-defense. If a criminal breaks in your home, you can't hold them at gun point until the police arrive, because the police will put you in jail for life for having a gun in the first place. You also can't let the criminal go because they might tell someone about your guns and then you'd go to jail for the rest of your life. So that only leaves one option. Anyone who breaks into your home has to die and you have to dump the body Soprano's style, not-to-mention that you'd have to break another federal law by constructing illegal silencers for any guns you plan to use to defend your home from criminals, as you would want to lessen the chance of anyone hearing the shot when you defend your home. The only thing in your favor here is that you'd be harder to catch, as killing someone who randomly breaks into your house is like killing a complete stranger; which is much harder to solve than someone who kills a friend, neighbor, lover, or ex-lover.

3) So in the anti-gunner's world, they've taken people who would have otherwise gone the rest of their lives as law-abidding, and turned them into criminals over night for keeping property the anti-gunners find distasteful, turned them into law breakers for constructing illegal silencers, and turned them into premediated murderers who dump bodies in order to defend their lives and the lives of their families, all in the name of hating the 2nd Amendment and the right to self-defense with a firearm. Way to go anti-gunners, way to go.


Guns are a huge part of our culture. There is no chance they will be taken away, unless there was a drastic change in our country, like anarchy, or another country establishing rule over us


If another country would actually dare try, we're the most heavily armed nation in the world.
Image
I'd like to put my rifle between her blades of glass


:lmao:


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25 Apr 2011, 10:21 pm

TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
While I tend to vote towards the left on many issues, gun control is one where I sit on the far right.

If more citizens were allowed to legally carry guns, some of the massacres used by anti-gun nuts as rhetorical devices could have been nipped in the bud. Nowadays, with all the smart weapons, robots and lasers, having a simple firearm really doesn't pose much of a threat to the government. Even if we wanted to take the government down, it wouldn't work unless we had the military refusing to fire on their own people. So the right to bear arms as a means of keeping the government in check is pretty much bogus, in my opinion.

For defending oneself from criminals though, that's where it makes a difference. Sure you can call the police, but you will be raped or murdered before they get there. Now when toddlers get hold of parent's guns and accidentally shoot themselves, siblings, or others, that's bad. But that's why if you have guns you need to train your kids young to respect them. Back in the day, hundreds of years past, firearms were part of daily life for survival some places. You can bet that children were taught about them, and toddlers watched carefully. It is tragic whenever a kid uses a gun on purpose or accidentally to hurt or kill someone, but that's no reason to outlaw guns.

The laws suggesting that one keep one's gun locked up and the ammo locked up separately are stupid though. Do you think an intruder is going to patiently wait when you ask, "Pardon me while I unlock my gun cabinet and load my firearm?" No, it is on the parents to teach their children to not mess with guns, or if they do mess with them, how to aim and hit your target. That's my opinion FWIW.


Contrary to what the lamestream media would like people to believe Conservatives generally are not kooks. The media just likes to paint conservatives as kooks to promote their leftist agenda.



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25 Apr 2011, 10:25 pm

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Contrary to what the lamestream media would like people to believe


http://thematrixhasyou.org/the-matrix.html !


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25 Apr 2011, 10:38 pm

Cash__ wrote:
There are so many guns out there that they could not possibly collect them all if outlawed. Half of my guns do not have serial numbers and are not traceable to me. So they wouldn't even know they should be collecting them.

(lack of serial numbers and non-traceability are not for criminal reasons. They are workable antiques.)


I agree. There would be many people, also, honestly, not aware where their traceable guns are, or they may have been stolen. Another issue there, someone comes to confiscate the gun, and it is lost or was stolen What can be done? Nothing.

If such a policy were enacted, and that in itself would be nearly impossible, unless another government with a huge military force takes over, it would be literally impossible to confiscate anywhere close to all of the guns. It would be like turning the Titanic around in a bathtub.

Given all the facts presented in this discussion. For what objective reason did people stock up on ammo when the administration changed. Why would someone believe that the government could take their guns, even if they tried? Are people really that afraid of Democrats? Is it just the Democrats or the whole government?

Listening to Rusty Humphries on the radio, "man up Monday", he was making fun of Democrats saying words to the effect that there were not, "real men". If so, what the heck are people afraid of; that maybe Democrats aren't real men, and somehow this phenomenon will spread into the country with Democratic control?

Not to long ago another talk show radio host was talking about Obama smoking Virginia Slims on the Beach.

I often wondered if that's what is behind most of political impasse in the country. Seriously, deep down people may be afraid of losing the Patriarchal tradition that has historically, been a strong part of our country. Gun ownership is key to it; the ability to protect the security and liberty of one's family.

Why else, would anyone be willing to die for their guns unless they thought their life or their families life could be threatened without them?

I have an old 28 gauge shot gun that was given to me by my great grandfather. I'm not sure but I don't think they even sale ammo for it. And I doubt it even works anymore. But, it does have sentimental value to me, and I would have a hard time parting with it.

I would imagine that's a big part of it too, most men might not want to admit that it is a part of the reason, but who wants to part with a rifle that was passed down through their grandfather, and father; I know it's a big part of it.

I live in an area where hunting is the most popular recreational activity right behind fishing. People have stories about their guns, it's almost like the guns are part of the family. And in someways they are.