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NAKnight
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08 Dec 2012, 4:35 pm

TallyMan wrote:

The established church (and Christians) had a real hard time accepting that the Earth wasn't at the centre of the universe and even today there are some Christians who don't acknowledge the fact of evolution or the age of the Earth.

If Darwinism is true, then there is no purpose or meaning to life, there is no morality, there's no qualitative difference between humans and animals, there's no life after death, and there's no purpose to human history. Now, are you trying to tell me that it doesn't really matter if Christians believe we evolved or not?

Best Regards,

Jake

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Last edited by NAKnight on 08 Dec 2012, 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TallyMan
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08 Dec 2012, 4:40 pm

NAKnight wrote:

TallyMan wrote:

If Darwinism is true, then there is no purpose or meaning to life, there is no morality, there's no qualitative difference between humans and animals, there's no life after death, and there's no purpose to human history. Now, are you trying to tell me that it doesn't really matter if people believe we evolved or not?

Best Regards,

Jake

You are making the jump that if evolution is true then Christianity is sunk. The vast majority of Christians acknowledge that evolution is a fact (because it is a fact) but still remain Christians, with their Christian morality and belief in an afterlife. Is Christianity so shallow that even in spite of evolution it becomes a worthless thing? Most Christians would argue not.

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NAKnight
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08 Dec 2012, 4:53 pm

TallyMan wrote:

Is Christianity so shallow that even in spite of evolution it becomes a worthless thing?

I'm sorry but I'm going to repeat what I said before,

You need outside evidence. That’s why careful Christians don’t just have “faith.”

Best Regards,

Jake

TallyMan
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08 Dec 2012, 5:01 pm

NAKnight wrote:

TallyMan wrote:

Is Christianity so shallow that even in spite of evolution it becomes a worthless thing?

I'm sorry but I'm going to repeat what I said before,

You need outside evidence. That’s why careful Christians don’t just have “faith.”

Outside evidence shows that evolution is a fact. How you incorporate that into your faith is up to you. Trying to deny it as a fact because it clashes with your beliefs is doing exactly what Paul said in your quote above: "According to Paul, if we believe contrary to fact, we believe in vain and are fools."

As I said, most Christians have crossed this hurdle in their faith and still remain devout, moral Christians while acknowledging the fact of evolution. There are a number of Christians who participate in this forum who have crossed this hurdle in their faith and accept the fact of evolution and yet are devout Christians.

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NAKnight
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08 Dec 2012, 5:08 pm

TallyMan wrote:

Outside evidence shows that evolution is a fact.

Does it matter if we evolved or not?
If Darwinism is true, then there is no purpose or meaning to life, there is no morality, there's no qualitative difference between humans and animals, there's no life after death, and there's no purpose to human history.

TallyMan wrote:

There are a number of Christians who participate in this forum who have crossed this hurdle in their faith and accept the fact of evolution and yet are devout Christians.

So, what's your point?

Best Regards,

Jake

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08 Dec 2012, 5:17 pm

NAKnight wrote:

My point is that you seem to be struggling to reconcile the fact of evolution with your own personal world view. As to morality or whether there is life after death or a purpose to human history nobody else can give you answers to those questions; only you can. Maybe your faith can guide you?

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NAKnight
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08 Dec 2012, 5:41 pm

Tallyman wrote:

My point is that you seem to be struggling to reconcile the fact of evolution with your own personal world view.

Not exactly, I would say that I am grounded fairly well in my beliefs. I acknowledge objective evidence and incorporate into my beliefs.

Tallyman wrote:

As to morality or whether there is life after death or a purpose to human history nobody else can give you answers to those questions.

Moral Absolutes provide satisfying evidence to contrary. They are the objective evidence in Christian conviction.
If relativism is true, then all moral categories are meaningless. Any attempt at moral discourse is reduced to incoherence. Therefore, the only course of action truly consistent with moral relativism is complete silence. If you view all morality as relative and you're consistent, you can't ever make a moral recommendation.

Best Regards,

Jake

Last edited by NAKnight on 08 Dec 2012, 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TallyMan
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08 Dec 2012, 5:48 pm

NAKnight wrote:

Moral Absolutes provide satisfying evidence to contrary.
If relativism is true, then all moral categories are meaningless. Any attempt at moral discourse is reduced to incoherence. Therefore, the only course of action truly consistent with moral relativism is complete silence. If you view all morality as relative and you're consistent, you can't ever make a moral recommendation.

I can see a certain appeal to moral absolutes. Everything is already laid out for you piecemeal. You just submit to the authority that provides those moral absolutes and take them as your own.

Personally I accept no moral authority. So by your definition I guess I'm a relativist. My own morality is rather simple... I simply treat others as I want to be treated myself. Beyond that morality isn't really a subject that interests me as a discussion.

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NAKnight
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08 Dec 2012, 6:00 pm

TallyMan wrote:

NAKnight wrote:

[/quote="TallyMan"] I can see a certain appeal to moral absolutes. Everything is already laid out for you piecemeal. You just submit to the authority that provides those moral absolutes and take them as your own.

I'm not choosing to submit to anything I have a choice and so do you.
I am choosing to provide myself some satisfy-able evidence.

Without freedom, there is no rationality. Every one of our thoughts , dispositions. So, oddly enough, if there is no free will, no one could ever know it, because they could never have a good reason to believe it.

Free will makes rationality possible. If there is no free will, then no one is capable of choosing to believe something because of good reasons. One could never adjudicate between a good idea and a bad one. He’d only believe what he does because he’s been predetermined to do so. Arguments wouldn't matter.

TallyMan
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08 Dec 2012, 6:03 pm

How would you define moral absolutes? I'm not clear on your use of the phrase.

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NAKnight
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08 Dec 2012, 6:06 pm

TallyMan wrote:

Personally I accept no moral authority.

Why is that? Do you feel like you are being judged for it?

Best Regards,

Jake

NAKnight
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08 Dec 2012, 6:11 pm

TallyMan wrote:

How would you define moral absolutes?

Moral Absolutes are the objective standard that dictates our actions, thoughts values and beliefs.

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08 Dec 2012, 6:16 pm

NAKnight wrote:

TallyMan wrote:

How would you define moral absolutes?

Moral Absolutes are the objective standard that dictates our actions, thoughts values and beliefs.

From where does this "objective standard" come from?

(I'll continue tomorrow, time for me to retire for the night. G'night Mr Knight

)

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NAKnight
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08 Dec 2012, 6:20 pm

I'll answer tommorow.

Have a good evening TallyMan.

Best Regards,

Jake

Keniichi
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08 Dec 2012, 9:54 pm

ruveyn wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

In this country, people are having a hard time getting over issues that happened 400 or even 800 years ago, let alone 100.

Some people still feel that wrongs commited against their forefathers were never corrected to the extent that it is still affecting their lot in life today. In some cases it is a valid argument. Sometimes to understand these perspectives you need to get out of your comfort zone, travel, see other countries. In America, you dont need to do that. Its clear to see that the native american population have been adversely affected by colonialism. I don't think its necessarilly an AS/NT thing. Historical events have a way of materially affecting the present.

Here is a Blast From the Past in the U.S. 200 years ago our predecessors stole the country from its aboriginal inhabitants, and we are NOT going to give it back. That is the fact.

What should we do?

ruveyn

Share it with them, without forcing them to go on reservations.
I wonder what happens to kids who are born to one person who is white, while the other person lives on a reservation?

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08 Dec 2012, 9:57 pm

TallyMan wrote:

NAKnight wrote:

Science and Christianity at odds? That would have surprised these men, and a host of others including, by the way, Sir Isaac Newton.

I grant that many historical scientists were Christians; however there have been and still are times when science and Christianity are at odds. Galileo for example and Copernicus and more recently Darwin. The established church (and Christians) had a real hard time accepting that the Earth wasn't at the centre of the universe and even today there are some Christians who don't acknowledge the fact of evolution or the age of the Earth.

I see no issue with Darwin. Animals and people do "evolve/change", it takes time!
so with that being written, do you think I believe in evolution? (Im a Christian)

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