Trans people still banned from serving in U.S. military

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Stannis
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23 Feb 2014, 6:22 am

ehymw wrote:
Stannis wrote:
ehymw wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Gender dysphoria is a mental illness and probably shouldn't be allowed into the US military. They don't let people with AS or and a host of other mental and physical problems into the military as well. They want you sound of mind and body to serve.


Autism no,

Aspergers....well I'm fairly sure at least a couple of generals had it.

PS Bradley Manning is a great example of a person who's sexual identify was a symptom of serious mental illness.


Are you sure? I heard his crisis of conscience came about when he witnessed the army murdering secular protesters on the false grounds that they were jihadists.


crisis of conscience?

Check the wikipedia page on his background.

He's insane.


Under what set of circumstances do you imagine someone who leaked what Manning did wouldn't be the subject of an intense smear campaign?



sliqua-jcooter
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23 Feb 2014, 1:47 pm

beneficii wrote:
You're not telling the whole story. For example, the medications taken by post-op transsexual women are not really all that different from women on birth control (and in fact some evidence suggests that they are safer, carrying less risk of blood clots).


Yes, but women who deploy and run out of birth control due to supply issues are able to cope indefinitely without any significant side effects. Asking a trans woman to go without hormone treatment for weeks or months is not the same thing.

Quote:
This article also busts the "can't deploy with medication" myth:


Actually, it doesn't - it just makes a statement without any evidence to back it up.

Quote:
Also, there are military contractors who are openly trans and have little to no problem out in the field, as this article shows.


I'm not saying that transsexuals aren't perfectly capable of performing military duties - I'm saying that allowing post-op transsexuals to join the military exposes the military to significant risk. Private military contractors don't operate under the same rules, and apparently some of them have decided to take on that increased risk - which is fine by me.


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beneficii
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23 Feb 2014, 2:17 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:
beneficii wrote:
You're not telling the whole story. For example, the medications taken by post-op transsexual women are not really all that different from women on birth control (and in fact some evidence suggests that they are safer, carrying less risk of blood clots).


Yes, but women who deploy and run out of birth control due to supply issues are able to cope indefinitely without any significant side effects. Asking a trans woman to go without hormone treatment for weeks or months is not the same thing.


Can you specify what these are? Can you provide a source? Do you even understand what trans women take for hormone treatment and what it does?

Do you know what happens to some women who can't stay on their birth control? Birth control doesn't just have the effect of preventing pregnancy for some women, you know.

Quote:
Quote:
This article also busts the "can't deploy with medication" myth:


Actually, it doesn't - it just makes a statement without any evidence to back it up.


All it took was a 5-minute search and I turned up this military website:

http://fhpr.osd.mil/fhp_online/prescription.jsp

This appears to support that article's statements that service members can and do deploy with medication.

Quote:
Quote:
Also, there are military contractors who are openly trans and have little to no problem out in the field, as this article shows.


I'm not saying that transsexuals aren't perfectly capable of performing military duties - I'm saying that allowing post-op transsexuals to join the military exposes the military to significant risk. Private military contractors don't operate under the same rules, and apparently some of them have decided to take on that increased risk - which is fine by me.


And that statement, as we can see, is based on nothing. Again, if our NATO allies can make it happen, we can make it happen. If our military contractors can make it happen, we can make it happen.

Now, I'm not saying you are not necessarily bigoted, but rather just quick to jump to the defense of the apparently reasonable decisions of an organization you may serve or have served in, but I do believe that a proper analysis of the benefits and costs would support the enlistment and commission of many trans people in the U.S. military, as our NATO allies have found, and that things like (you can't deploy with hormones--not even true, like with birth control) weren't even in the minds of the policymakers who came up with this: Only, just like with homosexuality before it, certain existing erroneous views of trans people, gender dysphoria, and related issues were, that are going to take time and effort to erode.

Let us not waste time thinking up pretexts for bigoted policymakers.


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beneficii
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23 Feb 2014, 3:46 pm

This article shows some of the negative effects on trans people who are already serving (the vast majority in secret):

http://www.policymic.com/articles/62681 ... s-military


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beneficii
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23 Feb 2014, 4:02 pm

There appears to be some inconsistency in the application of the military's policy on trans people. For enlistment or commission, it appears to be dealt with as a medical issue, but for separation it appears to be dealt with as a non-medical, disciplinary issue:

Quote:
Generally, the services apply physical standards that make transsexualism a disqualifying condition which impacts on military fitness and a basis for a non-medical discharge.


Quote:
If one is discharged for being transgender, then one's discharge my have coding on it that may make it hard for employment after service -- Employers can readily find information on different kinds of discharges and the codes entered on DD214s.


http://archive.feedblitz.com/181908/~4013924#181908_0

Some more info on the fears of trans people currently serving, which deal with issues of discipline. Many transitioners who become known to their command are tolerated, but eventually the higher-ups will catch up to them:

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/tr ... wpexumPI5s


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ehymw
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23 Feb 2014, 6:07 pm

Stannis wrote:
ehymw wrote:
Stannis wrote:
ehymw wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Gender dysphoria is a mental illness and probably shouldn't be allowed into the US military. They don't let people with AS or and a host of other mental and physical problems into the military as well. They want you sound of mind and body to serve.


Autism no,

Aspergers....well I'm fairly sure at least a couple of generals had it.

PS Bradley Manning is a great example of a person who's sexual identify was a symptom of serious mental illness.


Are you sure? I heard his crisis of conscience came about when he witnessed the army murdering secular protesters on the false grounds that they were jihadists.


crisis of conscience?

Check the wikipedia page on his background.

He's insane.


Under what set of circumstances do you imagine someone who leaked what Manning did wouldn't be the subject of an intense smear campaign?


Smear campaign?

The information came from his sister during Manning's trial.



beneficii
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24 Feb 2014, 2:44 am

Good article from The Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... s-military

Some excerpts:

Quote:
At one point, an American asked one of the panels how they handle transgender personnel and any associated issues. The response from members of several foreign militaries was confusion about why there would possibly be a problem with allowing transgender people to serve.


Quote:
I am now completely confident that our military could successfully navigate any challenges that arose. Americans regularly praise our troops as the most professional in the world. Arguing that they wouldn't be able to handle serving with openly transgender colleagues while the UK and many of our other Nato allies are easily doing just that impugns the honor of our service members.


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Stannis
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24 Feb 2014, 3:11 am

ehymw wrote:
Smear campaign?

The information came from his sister during Manning's trial.


I think it's highly likely that Manning's family were coerced into saying certain things. Ad-hominem smears are par for the course for whistleblowers; they are red herrings designed to distract us from the crimes that whistleblowers bring to light. It is foolish to entertain any of them them.



Last edited by Stannis on 25 Feb 2014, 11:20 am, edited 4 times in total.

ehymw
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24 Feb 2014, 5:28 pm

Stannis wrote:
ehymw wrote:
Smear campaign?

The information came from his sister during Manning's trial.


I think it's highly likely that Manning's family were coerced into saying certain things. Ad-hominem smears are par for the course for whistleblowers; they are red herrings designed to distract us from the crimes that whistleblowers bring to light. It is foolish to entertain any of them them.


Did he deny anything she said?



Atom1966
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24 Feb 2014, 9:52 pm

I do to understand the fact that transgenders want to be treated equally but there are worse things in life than getting excluded from being killed, maimed and traumatised.

Serving in the military is not my idea of happy and fullfilling career, that's for sure.



Atom1966
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24 Feb 2014, 10:03 pm

Misslizard wrote:
These soldiers look happy to be in each other's company. :) "You scrub my back and I'll scrub yours,"or something like that.
Image


Yeah, welcome in Utopia.



Emiruko
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25 Feb 2014, 4:54 pm

ehymw wrote:
Stannis wrote:
ehymw wrote:
Stannis wrote:
ehymw wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Gender dysphoria is a mental illness and probably shouldn't be allowed into the US military. They don't let people with AS or and a host of other mental and physical problems into the military as well. They want you sound of mind and body to serve.


Autism no,

Aspergers....well I'm fairly sure at least a couple of generals had it.

PS Bradley Manning is a great example of a person who's sexual identify was a symptom of serious mental illness.


Are you sure? I heard his crisis of conscience came about when he witnessed the army murdering secular protesters on the false grounds that they were jihadists.


crisis of conscience?

Check the wikipedia page on his background.

He's insane.


Under what set of circumstances do you imagine someone who leaked what Manning did wouldn't be the subject of an intense smear campaign?


Smear campaign?

The information came from his sister during Manning's trial.

Can we stop misgendering Chelsea Manning in this thread? It's really rude.



beneficii
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02 Mar 2014, 6:22 am

Apparently, Israel also permits trans people to serve. Damn! What was this thing about it being so risky and impossible for American trans people? Anyway, this article compares 2 cases of trans men and the different treatment each received in U.S. military and the U.K. military:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fiona-daw ... mg00000050


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beneficii
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13 Mar 2014, 4:22 pm

Report from the Palm Center Commission says that the U.S. military ban on trans people is not justified:

http://transgenderlawcenter.org/archives/10008

Some of the report's findings as referenced in the article:

Quote:
There is no compelling medical rationale for banning transgender military service, and medical regulations requiring the discharge of all transgender personnel are inconsistent with how the military regulates medical and psychological conditions.
Medical conditions related to transgender identity are the only gender-related conditions requiring discharge irrespective of fitness for duty.
Eliminating the ban would advance numerous military interests, including enabling commanders to better care for their service members.
Other military regulations have been updated to reflect the latest consensus of psychiatric experts on mental health issues, but while that consensus no longer classifies gender non-conformity as a mental illness, military regulations have not been amended to reflect the latest understanding of the scientific community about gender non-conformity.
The prohibition on medically-necessary cross-sex hormone treatment is based on inaccurate understandings of the complexity, risks and efficacy of such treatments, and is inconsistent with the fact that many non-transgender military personnel use prescribed medications of similar strength, even while deployed to combat zones.
Non-transgender personnel are allowed to undergo reconstructive surgeries, while transgender personnel are barred from obtaining medically-necessary gender-confirming surgery, at great cost to their physical and mental health.
Existing medical and other regulations are fully adequate to govern the service of transgender personnel and any related medical conditions that arise.
The US military can look to the experiences and standards of at least twelve allied militaries that allow transgender service, as well as several inclusive US federal agencies, as models in formulating administrative policy to address fitness testing, records and identification, uniforms, housing and privacy for transgender military service.


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