I'm more afraid of the left than the right in the US

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MrLucky
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17 May 2019, 4:59 pm

shlaifu wrote:
so...OP: do you define freedom as "freedom from restrictions" - or as "freedom to do what you want"?

these are not the same thing! - freedom to do what you want means you, as a society, can deliberately decide to react to climate change and put restrictions on yourself so you and organized human life can survive.
it also means you can freely choose to ban guns.
the way you make these choices is by democratic vote.

freedom from restrictions means, out of principle, you can't put restrictions on yourself, as a society, not even if you wanted to. So, even if a large majority really wants gun law restrictions, that goes against the freedom from restrictions.

so, in the latter case, there is freedom from restriction, but no freedom to do what you want.

another question: if you are in a position where you need to take up any work you can get to make ends meet, are you free? or are you constrained by your finances? - as long as you're constrained by finances, can you actually call yourself free from restrictions? and why would your finances be the only acceptable constraint on your freedom, whereas social institutions, or gun control for the benefit of all be inacceptable?

don't get me wrong, this is a tough one.
but as I see it from the quasi-communist country of Germany in which I live, in which we have lots of restrictions we chose to put on ourselves, and lots of socialist institutions like healthcare and tax-funded tertiary education - from over here, "American freedom" looks like the freedom to be unable to afford healthcare.


There is a difference between the American ideal, if I may, than most of the world sees things. Most nations see things as having "freedom from" where you have freedom from no healthcare, freedom from this and that and so on, I hope you get the idea where I'm going. Trouble is, that there is a point where an individual will be restrained. Here in the U.S., basically the Constitution give us a "Freedom to" such as freedom of speech, bear arms, not to testify against oneself in court and so forth. Basically the Founding Fathers put forth the freedoms we are granted from God (or a Higher Power, whatever, whomever you believe in if you so choose), the sake of being human and so forth. The Freedom From side is usually granted by the lord, king, government, wt.c, and can be revoked at anytime. Some people are happy under one system, other are happy in the other.

I do see where your freedoms can be curtailled by your financial situation, I'm in that situation now, but I would not trade it for the world. Yes, we should have some sort of process for healthcare without breaking the bank or having to worry on how to pay, but nothing is perfect.



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17 May 2019, 5:04 pm

sly279 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I believe it’s about recycling, eating less or no meat, believing wholeheartedly in the worst-case scenarios involving climate change, dispensing with “wasteful” lifestyles.

I’ll have to research for more specifics.

But I am one who likes to eat meat and believes in the positive “old time values.”

You forgot no cars and building a train to Hawaii and to Europe. Trains as the sole transportation cause somehow the pollution from trains is ok. And not just no meat we’d have to kill millions if animals I a mass genocide all brought to us from a lady who didn’t know what a garbage disposal was.


I think what the Greens do not understand is unless you want to live like a caveman, there is really no way they can have the trains and electric cars they want, the power comes from somewhere and you just shove the pollution bill to somewhere else. It is like robbing Peter to pay Paul.



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17 May 2019, 5:11 pm

auntblabby wrote:
the right wing have no "ideas" that will not do harm to me and mine. the only "freedom" the right wing offers my class is the "freedom" to starve, suffer and die. their only "ideas" are those that further enrich themselves while impoverishing anybody who is not them.


I do admit we must do need a better safety net, although I'm center/right, I do see your concerns. We can talk more about this later, but I just wanted to say that although I'm right of center politically, it does not meant I do not care, it's just we need to find a way without breaking the bank and so on. Maybe keep the health insurance we have now, but if you do not have any then you're in Medicare and you can get off of it if you so choose when you get a job with benefits. I also liked McCain's idea of issuing each person $5000/yr for healthcare and they buy it on their own.



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17 May 2019, 5:18 pm

MrLucky wrote:
Hollywood_Guy wrote:
This is because it's getting close to 2020 and I get anxious feelings about the direction of society as I feel Western countries and the US are pretty much finished.

The left (Democrats) is who I'm more afraid of than any movement or parties on the right. Because they expressed wanting things like the crazy "green new deal" and executive actions related to owning guns when they would get to power.

Am I actually the only one who feels the other way? I'm really anxious and worried about the current direction, I don't know how I'll survive 2020.

:(


I must agree with you. I see myself as a libertarian/nationalist (USA) or if you will, a Constitutionalist, "South Park Republican, Barry Goldwater and Michael Savage type. I fear the left a lot. There is one facet of the right I do fear too such as those who want to impose a theocracy and kill those whose "theology ain't right." I'm staunchly pro 2nd Amendment, pro-defense (although there are times we do stick our noses where they should not go), pro borders, language and culture. I don't have a problem with same sex marriage or LGBT rights, I do see a need for a welfare state as a safety net and we do need to focus our young in training for things like vocational skills and STEM skills. I am very pro-Western Civ. I don't think the radicals will get a lot of traction but we must remain vigilant. I just want to be left alone to live my life as I see fit, whether I own an AR-15, a 1977 Pontiac Grand Prix or whatever and if you do that for me, I'll extend the same to you.


My specific opinions sound very similar to you. I will also say that things became very different in this world since Obama became President, and not necessarily for the better. We have a different president now, but the craziness is still going on anyway.

Are you just an older generation than me though?



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17 May 2019, 5:23 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the right wing have no "ideas" that will not do harm to me and mine. the only "freedom" the right wing offers my class is the "freedom" to starve, suffer and die. their only "ideas" are those that further enrich themselves while impoverishing anybody who is not them.


Agreed, 120%. For the right's ideology to work with a person pulling himself or herself up by the bootstraps, it also needs someone to fail so those who pull ahead by their own gumption (or family money and connections) so the successful can be superior to "losers." That's everything that sums up Trump.


Well, there are some ways, I do think before one enters college, they should spend a couple of years in the workforce or join the military, etc., unless they know what they want to do. I'm a firm believer in the "Peter Principle" where one gets as far as they can go until they reach their point of incompetence and then stay there. I think in our education system, there has to be a way to focus on the interests and one's abilities and focus them on the training to add to their attributes. Myself for example, if I was a carpenter, I'd reach my point of incompetence right away, I can't hit a nail to save my life. I'm more into electronics, computers, basic car repair and so on where I can go much above that. We need to focus more on the vocational skills and STEM careers. Electricians, plumbers and car mechanics and so on make good money.

My father was poor and to get more job skills, he joined the Army at 17, at first went for radar and then changed to photography and served with the Signal Corps. He went to Korea a few years after the cease fire and was stationed at Camp Casey on the 38th Parallel and later, the missile range at White Sands.

Some people can do it on their own while others do need help and a nudge.



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17 May 2019, 5:36 pm

Hollywood_Guy wrote:
MrLucky wrote:
Hollywood_Guy wrote:
This is because it's getting close to 2020 and I get anxious feelings about the direction of society as I feel Western countries and the US are pretty much finished.

The left (Democrats) is who I'm more afraid of than any movement or parties on the right. Because they expressed wanting things like the crazy "green new deal" and executive actions related to owning guns when they would get to power.

Am I actually the only one who feels the other way? I'm really anxious and worried about the current direction, I don't know how I'll survive 2020.

:(


I must agree with you. I see myself as a libertarian/nationalist (USA) or if you will, a Constitutionalist, "South Park Republican, Barry Goldwater and Michael Savage type. I fear the left a lot. There is one facet of the right I do fear too such as those who want to impose a theocracy and kill those whose "theology ain't right." I'm staunchly pro 2nd Amendment, pro-defense (although there are times we do stick our noses where they should not go), pro borders, language and culture. I don't have a problem with same sex marriage or LGBT rights, I do see a need for a welfare state as a safety net and we do need to focus our young in training for things like vocational skills and STEM skills. I am very pro-Western Civ. I don't think the radicals will get a lot of traction but we must remain vigilant. I just want to be left alone to live my life as I see fit, whether I own an AR-15, a 1977 Pontiac Grand Prix or whatever and if you do that for me, I'll extend the same to you.


My specific opinions sound very similar to you. I will also say that things became very different in this world since Obama became President, and not necessarily for the better. We have a different president now, but the craziness is still going on anyway.

Are you just an older generation than me though?


I do agree with you that we have changed when Obama became President although it did start before that. I think the big change started with the 2000 election fiasco, 9-11 and so on but it picked up speed in 2008. I'm starting to sound like Glenn Beck here. ;) If I may offer my take, it seems like in this country, we are seeing two basic views that are diametrically opposed, 180 degrees out of phase if you will and as President Lincoln said, "a house divided cannot stand." This is not healthy and I fear for the future.

Anyhoo, I was a member of the Conservative site Free Republic until I was kicked off for "being too liberal" after being a member for 17 years. The reason, I stated that as long as your are pro-America and Constitution, it does not matter of one is LGBT or straight, I do not have a problem with same sex marriage and so on. I think many on the right drive them away, even if most other beliefs do agree. I lost Mom in 2013, most of my support came from friends who are LGBT as well as my cousin who is a male to female transexual who then became a lesbian. Heck, there are times my cousin makes me look liberal. ;) I just said that although not all will agree to the lifestyle, if they are going our way, there is room in the tent. I got kicked off.

BTW, you know what my cousin said to me that meant a lot? First, when Mom dies, I lost the house to a reverse mortgage. My cousin said to me that if she had the money, she'd buy the house and give it to me. My other cousin on Mom's side is a millionaire many times over but nothing from him. I would not ask him or expect him to do that but if I was in that position, I would do that for my cousin, just saying.

Oh yeah, one more thing, I was born in 1966, will be 53 in July. I'm an early model X'er athough I prefer "Generation Jones." ;)



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17 May 2019, 6:09 pm

MrLucky wrote:
snip...
Oh yeah, one more thing, I was born in 1966, will be 53 in July. I'm an early model X'er athough I prefer "Generation Jones." ;)


I asked because my own generation is even more rare and I want to be able to have somebody relate and "feel" my experience with growing up.



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17 May 2019, 6:11 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
In Sweden, a pastor can be sent to prison if he says that homosexuality is a sin. We need a law like that here.

Do we want a law sending to prison people that say autism is not a sin?


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17 May 2019, 6:16 pm

MrLucky wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
so...OP: do you define freedom as "freedom from restrictions" - or as "freedom to do what you want"?

these are not the same thing! - freedom to do what you want means you, as a society, can deliberately decide to react to climate change and put restrictions on yourself so you and organized human life can survive.
it also means you can freely choose to ban guns.
the way you make these choices is by democratic vote.

freedom from restrictions means, out of principle, you can't put restrictions on yourself, as a society, not even if you wanted to. So, even if a large majority really wants gun law restrictions, that goes against the freedom from restrictions.

so, in the latter case, there is freedom from restriction, but no freedom to do what you want.

another question: if you are in a position where you need to take up any work you can get to make ends meet, are you free? or are you constrained by your finances? - as long as you're constrained by finances, can you actually call yourself free from restrictions? and why would your finances be the only acceptable constraint on your freedom, whereas social institutions, or gun control for the benefit of all be inacceptable?

don't get me wrong, this is a tough one.
but as I see it from the quasi-communist country of Germany in which I live, in which we have lots of restrictions we chose to put on ourselves, and lots of socialist institutions like healthcare and tax-funded tertiary education - from over here, "American freedom" looks like the freedom to be unable to afford healthcare.


There is a difference between the American ideal, if I may, than most of the world sees things. Most nations see things as having "freedom from" where you have freedom from no healthcare, freedom from this and that and so on, I hope you get the idea where I'm going. Trouble is, that there is a point where an individual will be restrained. Here in the U.S., basically the Constitution give us a "Freedom to" such as freedom of speech, bear arms, not to testify against oneself in court and so forth. Basically the Founding Fathers put forth the freedoms we are granted from God (or a Higher Power, whatever, whomever you believe in if you so choose), the sake of being human and so forth. The Freedom From side is usually granted by the lord, king, government, wt.c, and can be revoked at anytime. Some people are happy under one system, other are happy in the other.

I do see where your freedoms can be curtailled by your financial situation, I'm in that situation now, but I would not trade it for the world. Yes, we should have some sort of process for healthcare without breaking the bank or having to worry on how to pay, but nothing is perfect.


Funny, I (and Isaiah Berlin, who came up with the two definitions of freedom) would call American freedom a 'freedom from' (negative freedom, in Berlin's terms).
The freedom from any restriction on speech, for example, where in the country I live in, there is a consensus that we freely choose to make holocaust denial illegal.

Americans are more individualistic than anyone, meaning, the individual is freer from restrictions than anywhere else - within the confines of capitalism.
The abortion debate is for example so difficult because there are two individuals' freedoms from restrictions colliding.
From my European perspective, I always found it peculiar how the republicans could care so much about unborn children and so little about children after birth - but at that point, the freedoms aren't colliding anymore, so that makes sense this way.
A foetus must not be restricted in its development, but once it's out, it's on its own.

Isaiah Berlin, btw., Was highly sceptical of negative freedom as a goal in itself.
He was against wars being fought for this, in particular.


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17 May 2019, 6:26 pm

MrLucky wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the right wing have no "ideas" that will not do harm to me and mine. the only "freedom" the right wing offers my class is the "freedom" to starve, suffer and die. their only "ideas" are those that further enrich themselves while impoverishing anybody who is not them.


I do admit we must do need a better safety net, although I'm center/right, I do see your concerns. We can talk more about this later, but I just wanted to say that although I'm right of center politically, it does not meant I do not care, it's just we need to find a way without breaking the bank and so on. Maybe keep the health insurance we have now, but if you do not have any then you're in Medicare and you can get off of it if you so choose when you get a job with benefits. I also liked McCain's idea of issuing each person $5000/yr for healthcare and they buy it on their own.

5,000 a year wouldn’t pay for much of anything one er visit is 2,500 dollarss


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17 May 2019, 6:29 pm

MrLucky wrote:
I'm a firm believer in the "Peter Principle" where one gets as far as they can go until they reach their point of incompetence and then stay there.



Uhm . What?

The Peter principle is meant to highlight a serious problem with the way people progress up hierarchies, it's the opposite of instructional.

It means everyone ends up at a position where they are incompetent.

Meaning: no one is ever competent in his job, because if they were, they'd get promoted until they are in a position in which they are no longer.

Trump was a competent reality tv star, then he got promoted to president, for which he's not competent.
By your interpretation of the Peter principle, he should stay there now.


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17 May 2019, 6:54 pm

Arevelion wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Arevelion wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

....The left is weak or even opposed to the basic "freedom of expression" and individualism...

...Boomers grew up with an older generation whose "rugged individulism" got them through the depression, WWII, ...


All due respect both of these statements are flat out wrong. Asking you you to please not use the "N-word" is not the same thing as being opposed to freedom of expression. If you were thrown in jail for saying the N-word that would be a different story, but no leftist I know advocates for that, certainly not me. Honestly this talk on the real impact of PC culture should get it's own thread, suffice to say that if you say the N-word on this forum, you won't get kicked off. The worst that will happen a mod will change the word. In fact I've seen plenty, of racist and hateful speech on this forum.

As for that older generation relying on "rugged individualism..."

The great depression saw the rise of the new deal, the introduction of welfare, the use of deficit spending, social security, increased labor protections, government intervention in agriculture, and many other interventions by the US federal government. In fact there would be even more government interventions right up into the election of Ronald Reagan. It's only since then that government interventions have been scaled back, with the election of Barrack Obama being a hicup in that process, and Trump being a mixed bag (that is intervening in some ways, but drawing back interventions in others.) So no. That older generation did not rely on rugged individualism.


You are confusing freedom of speech which is the right to say what you want without being arrested with freedom of expression which is lack of censorship from any source. I said freedom of expression. We have gone way way beyond politely asking people not to use the “N-Word” to bullying and intimidating people out of using dated words and expressing certain thoughts.

As for rugged individualism there is much more benefits for individuals and businesses then there was at the time of the original new deal. It is a much of a cultural change as a government one. At the top of the list of job requirements for most positions is team player. That was not true as recently as the 1980s. The attitude rightly or wrongly was everybody has problems it was up to you to figure it out and not burden others with it. There were a lot of people that starved rather then accept welfare.


People were bullied in the old days for their views too, that's nothing new. Civil rights protesters, anti-Vietnam protesters, victims of the McCarthy hearings were all bullied for their views, or alleged views in the case of the McCarthy victims, and frankly I would rather be the guy who said something racist today (which I have done on accident) than be any of the other aforementioned people.

Also I don't know how anyone measure's cultural change. I only know how to measure people's votes, and in the old days people voted for FDR, the guy who created welfare, four times. They also voted for Truman, and Kennedy and LBJ, and Nixon who despite being a republican increased government intervention (he created the EPA among other programs), and Carter. Also the people voted for congresses that allowed these presidents to get their interventionist agendas past. If they believed differently they should have voted differently. Clearly the old generation didn't mind government intervention that much. Again only with the rise of Reagan do we start to see a decrease in government intervention. The fact that we haven't gone back to pre-FDR levels yet could just mean that the process takes time.

Also don't forget. Plenty of Americans relied on programs like the Civil conservation corp, and welfare, and social security and other programs to get by. Clearly the old generation by and large was not above receiving government help.

Social Security was(wrongly) seen as an insurance policy(I am getting back the money I paid in Social Security taxes). The GI bill was seen as payment for service. Most people looked down on welfare “bums” “stealing” their hard earned tax money. A lot of people voted for the dems not for government benefits but because the party was pro union. 35 percent of the workforce was unionized in the 50s and the rest of the workforce benefited. Companies had to give union type benefits to recruit employees. The movement of the working and middle class to the Republican party in the 60s and 70s is rightly seen as racially motivated. But values were also a factor. The increase in taxes needed to pay the increased benefits were viewed as unfairly rewarding “bums” at the expense of “hard working” people.

It is not only benefits to individuals that went up but benefits to big cooperations even more. There used to be a stigma against filing for bankruptcy, now if you are big enough the government bails you out and the execs of said companies party on.

The censorious bullying you cited was by the right. It was the Free Speech movement not the shut down hate speech movement that set off the wave of campus protests in the years after.


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17 May 2019, 7:52 pm

Arevelion wrote:

Pepe wrote:

While I agree with some of the things the Labor Party is proposing, the looney tune environmental policy changes worry me.
I might have to invest in solar panels after all to combat the possible escalation of power prices.
The Labor Party is known for economic ineptitude...



I'm investing in solar panels myself actually. Want me to tell you about it?



It would be off topic, but hey, this is an autism website. :mrgreen:

If the left does get in today they will try to pass subsidies for solar batteries.
This could be political BS, but if it isn't, I will probably take advantage of the scheme, assuming it gets past through parliament.
Without the subsidies, batteries aren't financially viable.

I'm in Australia, btw.
But I would be interested in what you have learnt.
Perhaps in PM?



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17 May 2019, 8:00 pm

Hollywood_Guy wrote:

The biggest problem I have with my other peers as a millennial is that my generation prominently are brainwashed into the left and rejecting right-wing ideas. I have a personal family experience of that hitting home for us.


It is amazing how the left has hijacked public opinion.
Smart sods.
Brainwash the kids and you effectively influence the adults to a large degree.
Probably why schools pre-uni aren't interested in teaching critical thinking skills.

auntblabby wrote:
the left never did me any harm, totally unlike the right who doesn't deem me worthy of health care, a roof over my head, or even life itself.


Don't hold back, Auntie.
"Tell us what you really think." :mrgreen:

Yeah, I have heard bad things about the American health system in particular.
Here in Australia, the left has used scare tactics suggesting the conservatives will be responsible for an American style equivalent.
Pure BS, but there are a lot of dummies out there in voter land. <shrug>

auntblabby wrote:
the right wing have no "ideas" that will not do harm to me and mine. the only "freedom" the right wing offers my class is the "freedom" to starve, suffer and die. their only "ideas" are those that further enrich themselves while impoverishing anybody who is not them.


I am starting to see a pattern emerging:
You are not a Trump supporter. 8O

I know the American health system is bad.
How are you affected in other areas by right-wing policies?
<inquirery mode activated>



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17 May 2019, 8:19 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the right wing have no "ideas" that will not do harm to me and mine. the only "freedom" the right wing offers my class is the "freedom" to starve, suffer and die. their only "ideas" are those that further enrich themselves while impoverishing anybody who is not them.


Agreed, 120%. For the right's ideology to work with a person pulling himself or herself up by the bootstraps, it also needs someone to fail so those who pull ahead by their own gumption (or family money and connections) so the successful can be superior to "losers." That's everything that sums up Trump.


I heard somewhere that the number of coloured people finding jobs has improved dramatically under Trump.
Can anyone confirm or refute this?



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17 May 2019, 8:33 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the right wing have no "ideas" that will not do harm to me and mine. the only "freedom" the right wing offers my class is the "freedom" to starve, suffer and die. their only "ideas" are those that further enrich themselves while impoverishing anybody who is not them.


Agreed, 120%. For the right's ideology to work with a person pulling himself or herself up by the bootstraps, it also needs someone to fail so those who pull ahead by their own gumption (or family money and connections) so the successful can be superior to "losers." That's everything that sums up Trump.


I’m guessing his wanting to get rid of welfare is because “poor people”= “minorities”—and he wants an elaborate way to call them “lazy”.


I'm not a Trump fanboy, but I find that a rather harsh assessment.
And how is he trying to get rid of welfare?
Isn't he just making it harder for "able-bodied" individuals to take advantage of the system by motivating them to find a job?

Just asking.
I don't have a huge knowledge base when it comes to American politics.

The conservatives focused on that in Australia when they first came into power 6(?) years ago.
I.E. Tackle the problem of: an attitude of entitlement on welfare that the left here tends to encourage.
I'm convinced there is a problem here, hence my bitching about it constantly. :mrgreen: