Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Why is there so much liberal hate?

Page 36 of 49 [ 776 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39 ... 49  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Oodain
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,

14 Jul 2012, 8:43 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Regardless of inducement rather than compulsion, the whole concept of reducing a segment of the population because they're considered inferior or unworthy is dehumanizing. Even with the offer of money, the people targeted are perceived as less than everyone else in regard to being citizens, and in regard to being human beings.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


As long as no force or extortion is done there is no wrongful act.

Obviously you don't like the idea that some people think there are inferior folk who should not reproduce. I share you dislike but I do not characterize such an attitude as a crime, a sin, or a wrong. It is simply something I do not like. I point out to you the the Cosmos does not give one good damn what either your or I like or dislike.

ruveyn


that depends on the perception of the society around them, even if no physical force is used there is stil plenty of damage to do by the inference.

in a sense extortion is used since some groups are disproportionally disadvantaged to begin with, when you then offer them a very limited amount of alternatives and sterilization among them it can for some be a last resort.

you are right the cosmos doesnt care, but we as humans do and that shouldnt be discounted.


_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//

the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.


Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

14 Jul 2012, 9:05 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Quote:
You talk about the individual and the "invisible hand" as if they were God Almighty.

My statement was hardly a sermon by any measure.
I put invisible hand in quotation from Marshall using it, not out of reverence to the practice or principal.

Quote:
Well, I'm more willing to trust in the real Almighty long before I'll put my trust in your Randian idols.

It took me a while but I finally figured out what you meant by “Randian”. To be honest I never heard of Ayn Rand until I came to this forum and it was probably from your constant rantings about her.

Quote:
And yes, despite what right wing propagandists say, liberals can believe in God.

Which one?

Quote:
And it so happens, the Good Book says the Lord puts those governments you so fear and dislike above us, and so should be respected as such (with the obvious extreme exceptions such as Nazism and the like, I should think).

Again, I’ve never totally denounced government here or anywhere else. You know if I wanted to I would do it just because. Furthermore, I don’t really think The Lord meant the kind of government that robs us of our earnings to squander it on programs that forcefully hold our hands for us, etc....

Quote:
I think even an Aspie should know I was speaking with a degree of hyperbole.

Not necessarily.

Quote:
As a matter of fact, the most recent conservative politician who had advocated such a thing was in Louisiana. He had wanted to introduce a bill in which poor people on public assistance would be payed in order to be sterilized. While Preston Bush, the father and grandfather of the two Bush presidents, had thought it was a grand idea to pay blacks to be sterilized (he argued their payments ought to be determined by how high their IQ's were).

If this nameless Louisiana politician was in office during the time of George W’s granddaddy then there is nothing recent about it. Use something at least relatively contemporary to our time as an example of conservatism.

Quote:
It still doesn't mean I have to accept it, or put up with it - cosmos be damned.

Whatever you do don’t change your politics, no matter how tempting it might become. You’re much too entertaining as a liberal than you ever could be as a conservative.


_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson


bizboy1
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 945
Location: California, USA

14 Jul 2012, 10:36 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Quote:
You talk about the individual and the "invisible hand" as if they were God Almighty.

My statement was hardly a sermon by any measure.
I put invisible hand in quotation from Marshall using it, not out of reverence to the practice or principal.

Quote:
Well, I'm more willing to trust in the real Almighty long before I'll put my trust in your Randian idols.

It took me a while but I finally figured out what you meant by “Randian”. To be honest I never heard of Ayn Rand until I came to this forum and it was probably from your constant rantings about her.

Quote:
And yes, despite what right wing propagandists say, liberals can believe in God.

Which one?

Quote:
And it so happens, the Good Book says the Lord puts those governments you so fear and dislike above us, and so should be respected as such (with the obvious extreme exceptions such as Nazism and the like, I should think).

Again, I’ve never totally denounced government here or anywhere else. You know if I wanted to I would do it just because. Furthermore, I don’t really think The Lord meant the kind of government that robs us of our earnings to squander it on programs that forcefully hold our hands for us, etc....

Quote:
I think even an Aspie should know I was speaking with a degree of hyperbole.

Not necessarily.

Quote:
As a matter of fact, the most recent conservative politician who had advocated such a thing was in Louisiana. He had wanted to introduce a bill in which poor people on public assistance would be payed in order to be sterilized. While Preston Bush, the father and grandfather of the two Bush presidents, had thought it was a grand idea to pay blacks to be sterilized (he argued their payments ought to be determined by how high their IQ's were).

If this nameless Louisiana politician was in office during the time of George W’s granddaddy then there is nothing recent about it. Use something at least relatively contemporary to our time as an example of conservatism.

Quote:
It still doesn't mean I have to accept it, or put up with it - cosmos be damned.

Whatever you do don’t change your politics, no matter how tempting it might become. You’re much too entertaining as a liberal than you ever could be as a conservative.


:lol:


_________________
INTJ


Delphiki
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Age: 182
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,415
Location: My own version of reality

14 Jul 2012, 11:21 pm

bizboy1 wrote:
I never heard a conservative argue that there should be forced sterilization. As a Libertarian, I strongly oppose it. I've only heard Liberals argue this point extensively through means such as Global warming, Abortion rights, Women rights, poverty, etc. This is the liberal dream: a society dreamed up by some crackpot idealist.
I saw a different person who sometimes posts on here arguing for it and he was libertarian (not going to mention any names sense someone might think that would classify as a personal attack)


_________________
Well you can go with that if you want.


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,190
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

15 Jul 2012, 12:23 am

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Quote:
You talk about the individual and the "invisible hand" as if they were God Almighty.

My statement was hardly a sermon by any measure.
I put invisible hand in quotation from Marshall using it, not out of reverence to the practice or principal.

Quote:
Well, I'm more willing to trust in the real Almighty long before I'll put my trust in your Randian idols.

It took me a while but I finally figured out what you meant by “Randian”. To be honest I never heard of Ayn Rand until I came to this forum and it was probably from your constant rantings about her.

Quote:
And yes, despite what right wing propagandists say, liberals can believe in God.

Which one?

Quote:
And it so happens, the Good Book says the Lord puts those governments you so fear and dislike above us, and so should be respected as such (with the obvious extreme exceptions such as Nazism and the like, I should think).

Again, I’ve never totally denounced government here or anywhere else. You know if I wanted to I would do it just because. Furthermore, I don’t really think The Lord meant the kind of government that robs us of our earnings to squander it on programs that forcefully hold our hands for us, etc....

Quote:
I think even an Aspie should know I was speaking with a degree of hyperbole.

Not necessarily.

Quote:
As a matter of fact, the most recent conservative politician who had advocated such a thing was in Louisiana. He had wanted to introduce a bill in which poor people on public assistance would be payed in order to be sterilized. While Preston Bush, the father and grandfather of the two Bush presidents, had thought it was a grand idea to pay blacks to be sterilized (he argued their payments ought to be determined by how high their IQ's were).

If this nameless Louisiana politician was in office during the time of George W’s granddaddy then there is nothing recent about it. Use something at least relatively contemporary to our time as an example of conservatism.

Quote:
It still doesn't mean I have to accept it, or put up with it - cosmos be damned.

Whatever you do don’t change your politics, no matter how tempting it might become. You’re much too entertaining as a liberal than you ever could be as a conservative.


The Louisiana politician had put forth this atrocity just a couple years ago - so, no, it doesn't go all the way back to Preston Bush.
The God I had mentioned is the same God who sacrificed himself on the cross for the hopeless, and who pitied the poor.
And while Bizboy1 had taken your parting comment as a put down, I actually took it as something of a compliment - whether you intended it to be so, or not.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

15 Jul 2012, 12:38 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Quote:
The Louisiana politician had put forth this atrocity just a couple years ago - so, no, it doesn't go all the way back to Preston Bush.

And his name would be.........?

Quote:
The God I had mentioned is the same God who sacrificed himself on the cross for the hopeless, and who pitied the poor.

Just wanted to make sure.

Quote:
And while Bizboy1 had taken your parting comment as a put down, I actually took it as something of a compliment - whether you intended it to be so, or not.

That's the spirit :D


_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,190
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

15 Jul 2012, 12:58 am

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Quote:
The Louisiana politician had put forth this atrocity just a couple years ago - so, no, it doesn't go all the way back to Preston Bush.

And his name would be.........?

Quote:
The God I had mentioned is the same God who sacrificed himself on the cross for the hopeless, and who pitied the poor.

Just wanted to make sure.

Quote:
And while Bizboy1 had taken your parting comment as a put down, I actually took it as something of a compliment - whether you intended it to be so, or not.

That's the spirit :D


I'm seriously glad you approved of my last point. 8)
And I'm afraid I don't recall the asswipe's name, though I do recall him as smarmy, smirking, but unfortunately also a pretty boy who's probably a chick magnet.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

15 Jul 2012, 2:13 am

Raptor wrote:
marshall wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Quote:
No, it does not - not when that government lives up to the values of fairness and compassion.


You have a lot more faith in the goodness of government than I ever will.

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
-George Washington


You have a lot more faith in the goodness of "the invisible hand" than I do. Also, if a government is being "bad" you are still free to vote and change that. It's called democracy.


No, I have faith in the will and resourcefulness of the individual, followed by the "invisible hand", followed by limited government.
And trust me I do vote.
:D


Society in the real world is a complex system and there are problems beyond any single individual's control. If a belief in bootstrapping and the "just world hypothesis" makes the conservative mind feel more comfortable and self-satisfied, fine. Just stop using that false meritocracy Horatio Alger BS as an excuse to make the lives of others more difficult than they have to be.

I'd also mention how odd it is that you claim to question the goodness of government, yet support spending bajillions of tax-payer money on bombs and guns.



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

15 Jul 2012, 2:20 am

...



Last edited by marshall on 15 Jul 2012, 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

15 Jul 2012, 2:27 am

Oodain wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Regardless of inducement rather than compulsion, the whole concept of reducing a segment of the population because they're considered inferior or unworthy is dehumanizing. Even with the offer of money, the people targeted are perceived as less than everyone else in regard to being citizens, and in regard to being human beings.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


As long as no force or extortion is done there is no wrongful act.

Obviously you don't like the idea that some people think there are inferior folk who should not reproduce. I share you dislike but I do not characterize such an attitude as a crime, a sin, or a wrong. It is simply something I do not like. I point out to you the the Cosmos does not give one good damn what either your or I like or dislike.

ruveyn


that depends on the perception of the society around them, even if no physical force is used there is stil plenty of damage to do by the inference.

in a sense extortion is used since some groups are disproportionally disadvantaged to begin with, when you then offer them a very limited amount of alternatives and sterilization among them it can for some be a last resort.

you are right the cosmos doesnt care, but we as humans do and that shouldnt be discounted.


How long is it going to take you to realize that people like Ruveyn just don't give a s**t about any of that "sentimental" humanitarian crap. Not until some desperate people put a gun to his head will he care.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

15 Jul 2012, 7:16 am

marshall wrote:

How long is it going to take you to realize that people like Ruveyn just don't give a sh** about any of that "sentimental" humanitarian crap. Not until some desperate people put a gun to his head will he care.


I would prefer a society with as few "desprate" people as possible. I do not believe this state can be reached by having the government run every last little detail of peoples lives or stealing from those who have and giving to those who have not. Redistribution has never worked. Why? Because the redistributors end up with most of the stuff.

Who will watch the watchers? Who will guard the guardians? Who will control the contolers?

You see it just won't work.

Only a society based on voluntary trade and association has a chance of being peaceful and stable. That would include voluntary charity or voluntary redistribution. As soon as you introduce force you get either a communist or fascist gulag.

And don't praise democracy either. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb sitting at the dinner table and voting on what to have for supper.

ruveyn



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

15 Jul 2012, 7:25 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Regardless of inducement rather than compulsion, the whole concept of reducing a segment of the population because they're considered inferior or unworthy is dehumanizing. Even with the offer of money, the people targeted are perceived as less than everyone else in regard to being citizens, and in regard to being human beings.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


One of the infellicities of a free society is the freedom to have low opinions of other people however ill founded this opinions are. Opinions should be as free as the air. Actions, on the other hand, have to be constrained.

Do you know the difference between an opinion and an action? Really and truly?

Opinions are hot air. They are vapor ware. Actions are real. They can have fatal consequences.

You apparently harbor a wish to control some of the opinions of some other people. Am I mistaken?

ruveyn



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

15 Jul 2012, 7:29 am

marshall wrote:

How long is it going to take you to realize that people like Ruveyn just don't give a sh** about any of that "sentimental" humanitarian crap. Not until some desperate people put a gun to his head will he care.


And how long will you persist in the notion that A's need constitutes a rightful claim on B's means? Do you think that just because someone is hungry the rest of us should be forced to feed him at gunpoint?

I have a very simple notion. I was not put on earth to serve the needs of other people and to sacrifice my good for them.

I am here by accident and the way I will live out my few years is to trade some of my labor and goods with other voluntarily to fill my needs. I don't believe my hunger gives me a right to your food.

ruveyn



Oodain
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,

15 Jul 2012, 7:30 am

opinion often guide action,
when spoken they can even be action, depending on how people perceive it, in the social world we live in that is every bit as real as punching someone in the face.

also no one stands truly alone unless they are a hermit with a legal way to find free food, even then some of the ideas and knowledge learned earlier in life is based on other peoples work.
nothing you ever did was 100% yours(ie, they wouldnt be possible without other people somewhere in the chain)


_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//

the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

15 Jul 2012, 7:34 am

Oodain wrote:
opinion often guide action,
when spoken they can even be action, depending on how people perceive it, in the social world we live in that is every bit as real as punching someone in the face.


That is why we have laws concerning libel and slander. Even so, libel and slander have to be -expressed- which is an action. What we think in our heads is purely our own business. I am not under any compulsion to think well of my neighbor. Nor am I under any compulsion to think ill of my neighbor. What I think is purely my business.

Opinions are like rectums. Everybody has as least one.

ruveyn



Oodain
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,

15 Jul 2012, 7:57 am

true but that has nothing to do, at all with the issue at hand.


_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//

the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.