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THIS is why people need guns for self defense

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Wallourdes
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30 Mar 2012, 12:33 pm

thedaywalker wrote:
i also think that there would be a lot less social unrest and a lot more safety if everyone owned lots of firearms.


Could you explain this some more?


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30 Mar 2012, 12:54 pm

Wallourdes wrote:
Isn't firearm possession in the USA a self-fueled necessity perhaps even a fear? Others have one so I need one, just in case?

The country where I live in have different laws concerning firearms, I am glad it hasn't got similar laws as the USA since it wouldn't help when people get emotional (when do we not?) and might do things they later regret. Things like self-control exist since we humans as a whole aren't that controlled by our own rationale as much as we think or wish we were. Our behaviour isn't 100% accurately predictable at all times and not all people are responsible gun owners (not even speaking of consistency).
It doesn't have to be 100%. You have to accept some margin of error when it comes to anything in life. While it is true that we do tend to overestimate our self-control as shown by studies, this doesn't mean the pendulum swings to the other extreme where grown adults have the self-control of a 2 year old. Not that you said that, but a lot of these stupid gun control laws seem to have that underlying assumption.

Wallourdes wrote:
Besides, carrying a ranged weapon doesn't solve the problems with hate crimes, honor killing, etc.. at most it gives getting out alive a bigger chance (assuming the victim carries a firearm 24/7 at a quickly reachable place on her/his body and has the skill to wield it). Beside the assailants chances are improved by her/him wielding one, since he/she can open the conflict at range.
The flip-side of this is increases tension in society of everybody potentially having a lethal firearm on hands, increase in crimes using a firearm, more firearm-related deaths, more accidents with firearms, etc..
I don't even know where to start with this really. Guns aren't even supposed to address deeper societal issues, and guns aren't mutually exclusive from such things that are supposed to address societal issues either. Having more guns as well as better education or w/e can in fact go hand-in-hand. Not that I believe education is effective in combating subcultural norms since norms go deeper than institutions, but it's commonly thought to be effective so that's just the most convenient example I can come up with.

Wallourdes wrote:
But as said earlier, the gun culture is entrenched in the USA, banning them isn't going to work. Though I think phasing-out might.
The gun culture isn't the problem in the US, it's inner city subcultural norms that causes the youth to devalue education, civility, and self-control. I find the idea of one overarching culture that applies equally to all segments of society absurd. Matter of fact I think that whole idea is politically correct BS.



Wallourdes
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30 Mar 2012, 3:15 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
Wallourdes wrote:
Isn't firearm possession in the USA a self-fueled necessity perhaps even a fear? Others have one so I need one, just in case?

The country where I live in have different laws concerning firearms, I am glad it hasn't got similar laws as the USA since it wouldn't help when people get emotional (when do we not?) and might do things they later regret. Things like self-control exist since we humans as a whole aren't that controlled by our own rationale as much as we think or wish we were. Our behaviour isn't 100% accurately predictable at all times and not all people are responsible gun owners (not even speaking of consistency).


It doesn't have to be 100%. You have to accept some margin of error when it comes to anything in life. While it is true that we do tend to overestimate our self-control as shown by studies, this doesn't mean the pendulum swings to the other extreme where grown adults have the self-control of a 2 year old. Not that you said that, but a lot of these stupid gun control laws seem to have that underlying assumption.


The many suffer under the few, so when one goes wrong all will feel it.

AceOfSpades wrote:
Wallourdes wrote:
Besides, carrying a ranged weapon doesn't solve the problems with hate crimes, honor killing, etc.. at most it gives getting out alive a bigger chance (assuming the victim carries a firearm 24/7 at a quickly reachable place on her/his body and has the skill to wield it). Beside the assailants chances are improved by her/him wielding one, since he/she can open the conflict at range.
The flip-side of this is increases tension in society of everybody potentially having a lethal firearm on hands, increase in crimes using a firearm, more firearm-related deaths, more accidents with firearms, etc..


I don't even know where to start with this really. Guns aren't even supposed to address deeper societal issues, and guns aren't mutually exclusive from such things that are supposed to address societal issues either. Having more guns as well as better education or w/e can in fact go hand-in-hand. Not that I believe education is effective in combating subcultural norms since norms go deeper than institutions, but it's commonly thought to be effective so that's just the most convenient example I can come up with.


The article at the top of this thread stated a possibility to a hate crime or honor killing to be the cause of the crime, where the thread title opted the use of guns for self defence is necessary because of situations as these. What I was trying to say was that USA firearms laws might have the positive sides, but also the downsides.
Sadly there are deeper societal issues which escalate worse through use of firearms in contrast without firearms present, though I think you are right that norms and education withhold people from doing such actions.

AceOfSpades wrote:
Wallourdes wrote:
But as said earlier, the gun culture is entrenched in the USA, banning them isn't going to work. Though I think phasing-out might.


The gun culture isn't the problem in the US, it's inner city subcultural norms that causes the youth to devalue education, civility, and self-control. I find the idea of one overarching culture that applies equally to all segments of society absurd. Matter of fact I think that whole idea is politically correct BS.


I see your point, urban environment isn't the same the outdoor areas. For I see the use for some firearm ownership in the more outdoor areas (wild animals, no shopping malls in the area, living off the grid) but I don't see the use of firearms for regular people in the urban areas in anything else then the shooting range.
The circumstances where-under USA firearms laws where given aren't the same as to people live now, an update to modern times might help.


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Raptor
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30 Mar 2012, 8:42 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
Two wrongs don't make a right. "People are doing bad things, so lets shoot them! That's fair and just, right?"

Yeah... Seems legit.


Yes, it is legit to defend yourself against deadly force with deadly force. What should we do, give them a lollipop?
:roll:



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30 Mar 2012, 8:50 pm

It's still my own believe, in relation to myself, that being a guy and knowing how to take care of, clean, and properly fire and manage a gun is tantamount to knowing how to change a tire. For one they're a lot of fun to plink and target shoot with and second, in the event of societal collapse, if we need local patrols and they're asking the guys "Who knows how to work and maintain a firearm?" I damn well want to be one of those who has his hand up to offer assistance.

At the moment I'm getting bored of my .22 tactical and really want to get a nice 9mm by the end of the year; something where a normal 50 foot range can challenge me.


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30 Mar 2012, 10:55 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
guns are obsolete.




Do tell us what weapons make guns obsolete. And furthermore, please put such devices to the test IRL against someone with a gun.



Tasers? they're not safe, just less dangerous.


unless you meant in an abstract way, rather than a literal way?


let's have a taser-for-gun amnesty - i can see a lot more home-video Jackass copycats :D


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31 Mar 2012, 8:05 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
It's still my own believe, in relation to myself, that being a guy and knowing how to take care of, clean, and properly fire and manage a gun is tantamount to knowing how to change a tire. For one they're a lot of fun to plink and target shoot with and second, in the event of societal collapse, if we need local patrols and they're asking the guys "Who knows how to work and maintain a firearm?" I damn well want to be one of those who has his hand up to offer assistance.

At the moment I'm getting bored of my .22 tactical and really want to get a nice 9mm by the end of the year; something where a normal 50 foot range can challenge me.


Quote:
At the moment I'm getting bored of my .22 tactical and really want to get a nice 9mm by the end of the year; something where a normal 50 foot range can challenge me.


It's hard to go wrong with a Glock 17 or 19 if you want a 9mm. Keep the .22 as a spare and just because it's cheaper to shoot.



techstepgenr8tion
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31 Mar 2012, 8:35 am

Raptor wrote:
It's hard to go wrong with a Glock 17 or 19 if you want a 9mm. Keep the .22 as a spare and just because it's cheaper to shoot.

I've got a couple I've been looking at; for practicality I think a CZ 75b would be my first choice, and after that - for luxury - I might spring for an HK P30.


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31 Mar 2012, 8:46 am

So...what's the objection to law-abiding, mentally-stable citizens owning and carrying firearms, again?
Since we know many people do who DON'T meet those criteria...


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31 Mar 2012, 8:56 am

Why not be real men, and get yourselves a AK-47, or something? The guns about which you are writing are the firearms of choice for wussy liberals.



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31 Mar 2012, 9:07 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
Why not be real men, and get yourselves a AK-47, or something? The guns about which you are writing are the firearms of choice for wussy liberals.


:lol: I guess that's true. I'm a liberal, and I own two Glocks.
Someone spotted my 23 in my purse (I keep my 17 at home) on campus where I go to school,
which led to a very tense moment for me-
turns out, he was impressed as opposed to offended.

Ridiculous that I have to be terrified of being reported and going to jail just to feel safe on campus.


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31 Mar 2012, 9:32 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Why not be real men, and get yourselves a AK-47, or something? The guns about which you are writing are the firearms of choice for wussy liberals.


:lol: I guess that's true. I'm a liberal, and I own two Glocks.
Someone spotted my 23 in my purse (I keep my 17 at home) on campus where I go to school,
which led to a very tense moment for me-
turns out, he was impressed as opposed to offended.

Ridiculous that I have to be terrified of being reported and going to jail just to feel safe on campus.


Sounds like the start of a beautiful love story.



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31 Mar 2012, 9:33 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
Why not be real men, and get yourselves a AK-47, or something? The guns about which you are writing are the firearms of choice for wussy liberals.

Good luck finding a place to target practice with that.


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31 Mar 2012, 9:39 am

Wallourdes wrote:
The many suffer under the few, so when one goes wrong all will feel it.
Cute, but I don't feel the impact of every car accident. The many do however suffer under the few a**holes who misuse guns and cause isolated incidents to set precedents for stricter gun control. If you think it's worth banning something because a few people might f**k up then don't just conveniently apply this logic to guns, apply this logic consistently. Why not ban electricity since a few idiots are bound to get themselves electrocuted?

Wallourdes wrote:
The article at the top of this thread stated a possibility to a hate crime or honor killing to be the cause of the crime, where the thread title opted the use of guns for self defence is necessary because of situations as these. What I was trying to say was that USA firearms laws might have the positive sides, but also the downsides.
Sadly there are deeper societal issues which escalate worse through use of firearms in contrast without firearms present, though I think you are right that norms and education withhold people from doing such actions.
Yes you can be on either end of the gun. And? Also, read my post again. I said I don't believe education is effective in combating subcultural norms. I only brought it up since it's what people think of as effective. One thing education is effective at though is educating people on sex and drugs. If we inform the youth rather than try to impose some BS propaganda on them, people will be able to make informed choices which will lead to society functioning better.

Wallourdes wrote:
I see your point, urban environment isn't the same the outdoor areas. For I see the use for some firearm ownership in the more outdoor areas (wild animals, no shopping malls in the area, living off the grid) but I don't see the use of firearms for regular people in the urban areas in anything else then the shooting range.
The circumstances where-under USA firearms laws where given aren't the same as to people live now, an update to modern times might help.
No you don't see my point at all. Matter of fact you completely missed it. I wasn't talking about the environment, I was talking about subcultural norms which lead to degeneracy in the inner cities.

ArrantPariah wrote:
Why not be real men, and get yourselves a AK-47, or something? The guns about which you are writing are the firearms of choice for wussy liberals.
Pffftt please. I'm saving up for an M14. AK's are for centrist p*****s who sit on the fence between pistols and true .30 cal rifles.



Last edited by AceOfSpades on 31 Mar 2012, 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

ArrantPariah
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31 Mar 2012, 9:42 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Why not be real men, and get yourselves a AK-47, or something? The guns about which you are writing are the firearms of choice for wussy liberals.

Good luck finding a place to target practice with that.


Hey, if thou hast an AK-47, then thou mayest practise upon any target thou desirest.

Thou must be frequenting liberal target-practice places.



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31 Mar 2012, 9:44 am

AceOfSpades wrote:
Wallourdes wrote:
The many suffer under the few, so when one goes wrong all will feel it.
Cute, but I don't feel the impact of every car accident. The many do however suffer under the few a**holes who misuse guns and cause isolated incidents to set precedents for stricter gun control. If you think it's worth banning something because a few people might f**k up then don't just conveniently apply this logic to guns, apply this logic consistently. Why not ban electricity since a few idiots are bound to get themselves electrocuted?


:lol:

+ 1


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