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Is work tyranny?

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thomas81
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26 Feb 2013, 6:19 pm

visagrunt wrote:

You claim to be under the thumb of such a company. Are you compensated fairly for the work that you do?

Subjective. Whether or not this is the case, is an opinion that varies from individual to individual.

Suffice to say the vast proporation of my colleagues share my dissatisfaction.
visagrunt wrote:
Is your employer subject to rules that promote transparency in staffing? Are employees at your company part of bargaining units? Just because you work in an unsatisfactory environment does not mean that a well regulated market cannot create satisfactory employment opportunities for people.

I see the market not as some infallible sacred cow that must be repaired, but as a fundamentally flawed construct to be replaced.
visagrunt wrote:

As as for the amplification of exploitation in other parts of the world, that goes directly to my point about rules. Where government fails to regulate, employers will seek to exploit.

The role of government in regulating the labour market is a necessary component of precisely the system that you contemplate.


i don't disagree on this point. I just do not see the market and government being inherently good bedfellows due to the conflicting interests beween the employer and employee strata.


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GGPViper
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26 Feb 2013, 6:21 pm

thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:

Usain Bolt will run the 100 metre distance faster than me. John von Neumann's cognitive abilities are vastly superior to mine on pretty much any scale ever devised to test cognitive ability.

If I am smarter than Usain Bolt, he will still be a athletic superstar and I'll still be a common bureaucrat. If I run faster than John von Neumann, he will still be a scientific mastermind, and I'll still be a common bureaucrat.

There is no just world invisible hand which ensures that differences in ability between individuals cancel each other out...

The idea that not all disabilities and abilities are 'cancelled out' does not validate a system which facilitates servitude and excessive privilege on grand extremities.

I'm sorry, I didn't get that. I am proficient in English, but not in BS.

Ad hominem. Care to substantiate that?

Gladly... Once you explain to me what the heck a "system which facilitates servitude and excessive privilege on grand extremities" is...

Oh, and it is not an Ad Hominem when I am attacking a specific (and highlighted) statement made by another poster.



thomas81
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26 Feb 2013, 6:24 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Gladly... Once you explain to me what the heck a "system which facilitates servitude and excessive privilege on grand extremities" is...

.


Example: We are living under one. Simples.


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Ichinin
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26 Feb 2013, 6:29 pm

So many people in this thread with boring jobs that does not motivate them or give their lives fulfillment.


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GGPViper
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26 Feb 2013, 6:37 pm

thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Gladly... Once you explain to me what the heck a "system which facilitates servitude and excessive privilege on grand extremities" is...


Example: We are living under one. Simples.

Not me. I live under a system which reproduces proto-reactionary Kautskyistic appeasement of lesser conformities.



androbot2084
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27 Feb 2013, 3:53 am

Brute labor without the assistance of machines is tyranny.



thomas81
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27 Feb 2013, 1:27 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Brute labor without the assistance of machines is tyranny.


The vast proportion of the current labour market, whether it be manpower, logistics and customer service is but a cruel heirarchy to reduce intelligible human beings with aspirations and spirit to automatons and mouthpiece yes men of the same system that enslaved them.


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Last edited by thomas81 on 27 Feb 2013, 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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27 Feb 2013, 1:28 pm

GGPViper wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Gladly... Once you explain to me what the heck a "system which facilitates servitude and excessive privilege on grand extremities" is...


Example: We are living under one. Simples.

Not me. I live under a system which reproduces proto-reactionary Kautskyistic appeasement of lesser conformities.


Could you translate that in to plainer language?

Thank you



thomas81
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27 Feb 2013, 1:30 pm

GGPViper wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Gladly... Once you explain to me what the heck a "system which facilitates servitude and excessive privilege on grand extremities" is...


Example: We are living under one. Simples.

Not me. I live under a system which reproduces proto-reactionary Kautskyistic appeasement of lesser conformities.



...and I am the one who talks BS. :roll:


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visagrunt
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27 Feb 2013, 2:58 pm

thomas81 wrote:
I see the market not as some infallible sacred cow that must be repaired, but as a fundamentally flawed construct to be replaced.


Replaced with what? So far the only alternative to the marketplace demonstrated itself to be a complete and utter failure.

The unregulated market is clearly a non-starter. And governments' attempts to regulate the market have demonstrated themselves to be imperfect.

But there's no use asking if the air's good when there's nothing else to breathe.


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thomas81
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27 Feb 2013, 3:09 pm

visagrunt wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
I see the market not as some infallible sacred cow that must be repaired, but as a fundamentally flawed construct to be replaced.


Replaced with what? So far the only alternative to the marketplace demonstrated itself to be a complete and utter failure.

The unregulated market is clearly a non-starter. And governments' attempts to regulate the market have demonstrated themselves to be imperfect.

But there's no use asking if the air's good when there's nothing else to breathe.


Energy accounting. It is explained in full in the Technocracy study course.


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02 Mar 2013, 1:23 am

Fnord wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
So do you agree that we need societal provisions for those unable to find work so as to reduce the risk of people resorting to crime to stay alive?

Not specifically. What we need is a system that can and will provide work for those who are able, and a minimum of social support for those who are not.

So maybe the saying of Paul of Tarsus should be amended to read, "Those who do not work shall not eat as much as those who do".

No work = Subsistence living only.

Subsistence = Basic food, education, lodging, and preventive medical care.

Work = Subsistence plus whatever else you can earn - the more you earn, the better your quality of life.


Well Fnord, I think I may have misjudged your character then. My impressions of you were that you were a monster but now I know you are not. After reading more of your posts I think I may understand you a lot better now. All you are doing is stating the cold-hard facts. You're have no malice or evil when you state them.

Here is the thing. I believe in getting to the truth behind things and I believe in objective truth. I have been reading your posts to see if I was wrong about you and I was. I apologize.

Since I do believe in getting to the truth for truth's sake I will keep questioning you and the beliefs you belief in. Life not examined is not worth living.



cubedemon6073
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02 Mar 2013, 7:47 am

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That pretty much embellishes on the system that I proposed. As long as free education is provided to all, each person has the opportunity for self-improvement. Even a physically disabled person should be given free access to a university education, as he or she may develop into the next Stephen Hawking!


How is our education system free if we all have to pay taxes to support it?



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02 Mar 2013, 8:12 am

ruveyn wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
I agree with you up until this extent, however what we do not need is a system that provides work for works sake, what we need is a system which provides work which maximises and utilises each human being to their full potential while giving them fair opportunity to embetter or alternate themselves.


We have that system. It's called the market.

However, because the of the structural imbalance of bargaining power, we do have to temper the market by prohibiting employers from engaging in conduct that is exploitative.

Where government fails to put constraints on employers, employment can become exploitative, and hence, tyrranical. When government exercises excessive control over the marketplace, then the marketplace can become dysfunctional by removing the incentive to produce. The key lies in the balance. Enough rules to keep employers and employees on a level playing field, but loose enough so that each can maximize their gains from the relationship.


What imbalance? If the worker doesn't like the wages he can decline the job. He is free to do so.

ruveyn


Do you believe the corporations are cookie cutter meaning the standards are the same are extremely similar?



ruveyn
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02 Mar 2013, 10:33 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:

Do you believe the corporations are cookie cutter meaning the standards are the same are extremely similar?


It does not matter. If a worker does not like the job he can walk. No one need take a job he does not want.

ruveyn



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02 Mar 2013, 12:22 pm

When my employers fire me they tell me I can't work for someone else.