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5 Reasons Liberals Are Such Unpleasant People To Be Around

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Kraichgauer
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24 Apr 2014, 8:40 pm

Dox47 wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
discriminating against gays is not homophobic how?


Because discrimination and bigotry are not the same thing; homophobia requires an irrational aversion/fear of homosexuality/homosexuals, neither of which is satisfied merely by discriminating against them for reasons that can be perfectly rational.


What would those rational reasons be?


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Dox47
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24 Apr 2014, 8:40 pm

Stannis wrote:
I don't like threads like this.. They are about arbitrarily defining people into an enemy camp, and then inflicting pain on them.

Is anyone enjoying this on any level?

When the OP doesn't even believe what he says, what's the point?


I believe, though I may be wrong, that the point is tit-for-tat; since umpteen conservative bashing threads get posted in PPR every week, it was time for a liberal bashing one. Personally, I don't think the people the thread is aimed at are capable of absorbing the intended lesson, that these types of threads are irritating and perhaps they should reconsider next time they're thinking of posting one, so I'm making the best of it with a semantic argument of the type I enjoy.


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Dox47
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24 Apr 2014, 8:43 pm

starvingartist wrote:
edit*--if you do respond, please don't equate the LGBT community to pedophiles or people who practice bestiality because there is no comparison. LGBT people have sex with consenting adults like straight people do. pedophiles and people into bestiality have sex with people or things that cannot consent. the latter two are not only breaking the law but seriously infringing on the bodily integrity and rights of others, and therefore don't deserve the right to marry children or dogs or whatever. this is obvious to anyone with sense, and shouldn't be conflated with homosexuality--when you do conflate homosexuality with criminal behaviours like pedophilia and bestiality, that is homophobia.


You do realize that I support 100% gay equality in every way, right? That I'm not actually defending homophobia, merely contesting the assertion that discrimination and homophobia are the same thing? Cause I'm getting the feeling that you're not quite realizing the distinction.


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seaturtleisland
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24 Apr 2014, 8:47 pm

Dox47 wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
discriminating against gays is not homophobic how?


Because discrimination and bigotry are not the same thing; homophobia requires an irrational aversion/fear of homosexuality/homosexuals, neither of which is satisfied merely by discriminating against them for reasons that can be perfectly rational.


Even if your reason for discriminating against homosexuals isn't homophobic (that depends on what definition you use) that doesn't make it rational. Why don't you give us a rational reason for discriminating against people based on their sexual orientation?


P.S. Religious beliefs aren't a rational reason. That'd be like me telling other people they aren't allowed to eat chicken wings because I don't like them or saying that everyone has to be a vegetarian because one person thinks eating meat is immoral.



Dox47
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24 Apr 2014, 8:47 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
What would those rational reasons be?


Religious reasons are completely rational if you accept the framework of the religion, to return to a familiar example. You're a Christian, you worship an ancient zombie, among other things that could be considered irrational by the world at large, but because of the context of Christianity as a religion, we don't call you crazy or deluded (well, most of us don't).


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Kraichgauer
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24 Apr 2014, 8:51 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
What would those rational reasons be?


Religious reasons are completely rational if you accept the framework of the religion, to return to a familiar example. You're a Christian, you worship an ancient zombie, among other things that could be considered irrational by the world at large, but because of the context of Christianity as a religion, we don't call you crazy or deluded (well, most of us don't).


And yet, plenty of Christians - such as myself - have no problem with gay rights.


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Dox47
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24 Apr 2014, 8:56 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
Even if your reason for discriminating against homosexuals isn't homophobic (that depends on what definition you use) that doesn't make it rational. Why don't you give us a rational reason for discriminating against people based on their sexual orientation?


P.S. Religious beliefs aren't a rational reason. That'd be like me telling other people they aren't allowed to eat chicken wings because I don't like them or saying that everyone has to be a vegetarian because one person thinks eating meat is immoral.


I don't think you understand what 'rational' actually means.

Quote:
ra·tio·nal
adjective \ˈrash-nəl, ˈra-shə-nəl\

: based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings

: having the ability to reason or think about things clearly


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rational

Within the framework of religion, opposition to homosexuality can indeed be perfectly rational, i.e. not based on emotions or feelings. I you accept a higher power as the ultimate authority and that higher power has decreed that homosexuality is wrong, then it is rational for you to adopt that position. You could probably also make procreation based rational arguments, but as someone who does not actually hold the position that homosexuality is in any way wrong or in need of suppressing, I don't particularly feel like making any myself.


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Dox47
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24 Apr 2014, 8:56 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
And yet, plenty of Christians - such as myself - have no problem with gay rights.


Good for you, in no way invalidates my point.


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24 Apr 2014, 9:02 pm

Stannis wrote:
This thread is about arbitrarily defining people into an enemy camp, and then inflicting pain on them.

Is anyone enjoying this on any level?

When the OP doesn't even believe what he says, what's the point?


Yeah, we've never had a thread started by a liberal that was damning of conservatives.
What was that dreadful Raptor thinking?!
:roll:


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seaturtleisland
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24 Apr 2014, 9:37 pm

Dox47 wrote:
seaturtleisland wrote:
Even if your reason for discriminating against homosexuals isn't homophobic (that depends on what definition you use) that doesn't make it rational. Why don't you give us a rational reason for discriminating against people based on their sexual orientation?


P.S. Religious beliefs aren't a rational reason. That'd be like me telling other people they aren't allowed to eat chicken wings because I don't like them or saying that everyone has to be a vegetarian because one person thinks eating meat is immoral.


I don't think you understand what 'rational' actually means.

Quote:
ra·tio·nal
adjective \ˈrash-nəl, ˈra-shə-nəl\

: based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings

: having the ability to reason or think about things clearly


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rational

Within the framework of religion, opposition to homosexuality can indeed be perfectly rational, i.e. not based on emotions or feelings. I you accept a higher power as the ultimate authority and that higher power has decreed that homosexuality is wrong, then it is rational for you to adopt that position. You could probably also make procreation based rational arguments, but as someone who does not actually hold the position that homosexuality is in any way wrong or in need of suppressing, I don't particularly feel like making any myself.


No. It would be rational for the person who believes in a higher power to believe that homosexuality is wrong. It would be completely rational for that person to avoid committing homosexual acts at all costs for the sake of salvation. It would still be irrational for that person to discriminate against another person for being homosexual. I was raised Catholic and I was never told that I would go to hell because someone else was gay. I was only told that I would go to hell if I was gay. Therefore it wouldn't have made sense for me to make sure that there were no gays since other people being gay wouldn't have affected me at all even if I accepted the religion I was raised with.

Does any denomination of Christianity teach that if one person sins (besides the original sin) everyone has to pay for it? Would anyone ever go to confession because their cousin killed someone?



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24 Apr 2014, 9:49 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Within the framework of religion, opposition to homosexuality can indeed be perfectly rational, i.e. not based on emotions or feelings. I you accept a higher power as the ultimate authority and that higher power has decreed that homosexuality is wrong, then it is rational for you to adopt that position. You could probably also make procreation based rational arguments, but as someone who does not actually hold the position that homosexuality is in any way wrong or in need of suppressing, I don't particularly feel like making any myself.


if this is true, how can you say that discrimination against them (for whatever reason) is rational? it would only be rational if they deserved to be discriminated against. they don't, because they are human beings. hence, discriminating against them is not rational. discriminating against people does not become rational because people think god wants them to discriminate against certain groups. how is that rational?

also, i'm pretty sure god doesn't tell anyone to hate gays in the bible. i believe it says something about not being one yourself. so yeah, discriminating against all gays, still not rational.



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24 Apr 2014, 10:27 pm

starvingartist wrote:
if this is true, how can you say that discrimination against them (for whatever reason) is rational?


Because my feelings on the matter don't make it any less true? Are you questioning my belief in equality? Because if you are, my six years of posting history are right there for you to examine, though it might be easier just to take me word for it, since I'm in the best position to know and all.

starvingartist wrote:
it would only be rational if they deserved to be discriminated against.


That's not actually what 'rational' means; see my previous response to another poster.

starvingartist wrote:
they don't, because they are human beings. hence, discriminating against them is not rational.


Not actually a rational argument.

starvingartist wrote:
discriminating against people does not become rational because people think god wants them to discriminate against certain groups. how is that rational?


It is rational within the framework of the religion, being not based on emotion or feeling but rather what have been laid down as the "rules" of the faith. I have a feeling you're not grasping what is meant by 'rational' in this context.

starvingartist wrote:
also, i'm pretty sure god doesn't tell anyone to hate gays in the bible. i believe it says something about not being one yourself. so yeah, discriminating against all gays, still not rational.


And again, please educate yourself as to the meaning of words before debating their meaning with people who already know.


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Dox47
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24 Apr 2014, 10:34 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
No. It would be rational for the person who believes in a higher power to believe that homosexuality is wrong. It would be completely rational for that person to avoid committing homosexual acts at all costs for the sake of salvation. It would still be irrational for that person to discriminate against another person for being homosexual. I was raised Catholic and I was never told that I would go to hell because someone else was gay. I was only told that I would go to hell if I was gay. Therefore it wouldn't have made sense for me to make sure that there were no gays since other people being gay wouldn't have affected me at all even if I accepted the religion I was raised with.

Does any denomination of Christianity teach that if one person sins (besides the original sin) everyone has to pay for it? Would anyone ever go to confession because their cousin killed someone?


Your failure to understand the motivations of others does not make those motivations irrational. If someone believes that homosexuality is sinful, and further believes that marriage is a religious ceremony that they attach great importance to, how does it not follow that they would oppose homosexual marriage as a perversion of their sacred rite? Regardless of how you feel about it, that's a perfectly rational chain of thought in context.


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Kraichgauer
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24 Apr 2014, 11:12 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
And yet, plenty of Christians - such as myself - have no problem with gay rights.


Good for you, in no way invalidates my point.


I actually wasn't trying to invalidate your point, but just make an observation about myself.


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24 Apr 2014, 11:13 pm

Raptor, are you the author of the article in the OP?



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25 Apr 2014, 12:51 am

starvingartist wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Within the framework of religion, opposition to homosexuality can indeed be perfectly rational, i.e. not based on emotions or feelings. I you accept a higher power as the ultimate authority and that higher power has decreed that homosexuality is wrong, then it is rational for you to adopt that position. You could probably also make procreation based rational arguments, but as someone who does not actually hold the position that homosexuality is in any way wrong or in need of suppressing, I don't particularly feel like making any myself.


if this is true, how can you say that discrimination against them (for whatever reason) is rational? it would only be rational if they deserved to be discriminated against. they don't, because they are human beings. hence, discriminating against them is not rational. discriminating against people does not become rational because people think god wants them to discriminate against certain groups. how is that rational?

also, i'm pretty sure god doesn't tell anyone to hate gays in the bible. i believe it says something about not being one yourself. so yeah, discriminating against all gays, still not rational.


Consider his basic premise: within the framework of religion.
Since such a framework is inherently irrational, any rational seeming argument based in such a premise is, because of its irrational basis, itself irrational.
You're arguing against a non-argument my friend.