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Bec
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31 Mar 2005, 12:20 am

Glenn wrote:
"Heaven for climate", he said "....but Hell for society!"


Amen! :lol:



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31 Mar 2005, 1:52 pm

TAFKASH wrote:

Couldn't have said it better myself matey (for the most part :wink:)

My one disagreement is that I still believe that the "having love in your heart" bit isn't a choice anyone can make though either.... I can still see no equitable way for God to seperate the saved from the hellbound..... I just don't see how anybody has a real choice on what path to take through existence - we are all purely composites of our nurture and our nature, neither of which we have any say in nor control over. This is where the "freedom of choice" argument fundamentally falls down it seems to me.... Ultimately, we either all have to go to Heaven, or all to t'other place for there to be any justice in the system - a conundrum to be sure.


Thanks.

God doesn't choose our fate, we do. That's why it's fair. And if you want to argue that we don't choose our fate, then no one does, and that's that.

His words judge us, not Him. It's just about cause and effect. Love is not what you feel, it's what you make of your life, and how you treat others. It's about what your priorities are. Because one day you wil regret the waste of your life, if you do waste it. That is why all the proud will be stubble. The fire is the consuming truth of your life, revealed at the end.

BTW, according to the Bible and science, we are all One, as we all exist within an ordered singularity, a concensus reality.



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31 Mar 2005, 2:40 pm

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
As for Glenn's questions. To be honest, I'm going to have to ask my pastor or someone who knows the Bible better than me to try to answer those. I won't even try, I know my limits when it comes to knowledge.


You're going to have to ask your pastor or someone who knows the Bible better than you to try to answer those??????? :roll: Why not try using the mind you were born with to try and answer the questions yourself? Why not just think about something independently, yourself, for once? Why do you feel compelled to have to turn to your moral and intellectual enslavers at every opportunity to provide you with their pre-packaged, ready-meal-for-one answers to even the most basic of your questions? Why is some jumped up jerk in a cassock any better qualified to give you answers than yourself or anyone else? And what on earth has anything in the bleeding Bible got to do with anwsering these questions anyway? Why can't Christians do anything for themselves unless its pre-approved by some git in a dress of some kind or other?

Christians brainwashed, pre-programmed automotons..... never..... :roll:

1PeaceMaker wrote:
God doesn't choose our fate, we do. That's why it's fair. And if you want to argue that we don't choose our fate, then no one does, and that's that.


I must respectfully, but very firmly, disagree - none of us chooses or can choose our path through life - we are all clearly pre-ordained in our destinies from the days we are born, and none of us can do anything to alter them in any way. That's basic demonstrable fact matey. The whole "freedom of choice" thing is redundant tosh with no bearing in reality at all. None of us has any real "freedom of choice" at all.


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31 Mar 2005, 3:44 pm

TAFKASH said:

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Why is some jumped up jerk in a cassock any better qualified to give you answers than yourself or anyone else? And what on earth has anything in the bleeding Bible got to do with anwsering these questions anyway?


Because all the pastors at my church have been to Christian Seminary School and know things I don't about the Bible. As for how the Bible helps with the qustion should be obvious. It's a guidebook for the religion. If you take it into context and know the history behind it, it could be very useful. And I don't know the Bible very well (bad memory), that's why I'm getting help for Glenn's questions.

TAFKASH said:
Quote:
I must respectfully, but very firmly, disagree - none of us chooses or can choose our path through life - we are all clearly pre-ordained in our destinies from the days we are born, and none of us can do anything to alter them in any way.


Wow, I partly agree with you on that one. But, I believe we have two paths to choose from. One with, and one without, God.


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31 Mar 2005, 4:40 pm

TAFKASH wrote:
I must respectfully, but very firmly, disagree - none of us chooses or can choose our path through life - we are all clearly pre-ordained in our destinies from the days we are born, and none of us can do anything to alter them in any way. That's basic demonstrable fact matey. The whole "freedom of choice" thing is redundant tosh with no bearing in reality at all. None of us has any real "freedom of choice" at all.


erm... have i missed the sarcasm button here? am i going to have to disagree with TAFKASH, for the first time ever? will the world stop spinning in its orbit? is it a bird? is it a plane?

tune in next week - same time, same channel...

oops - got carried away there...



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31 Mar 2005, 6:34 pm

TAFKASH wrote:
... "I have faith, and that's all I need" ].....



I have faith and thats all i need :lol: :lol: :lol:
See below then see to the left :lol: :lol: :lol:


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31 Mar 2005, 7:06 pm

TAFKASH wrote:

Quote:
I must respectfully, but very firmly, disagree - none of us chooses or can choose our path through life - we are all clearly pre-ordained in our destinies from the days we are born, and none of us can do anything to alter them in any way. That's basic demonstrable fact matey. The whole "freedom of choice" thing is redundant tosh with no bearing in reality at all. None of us has any real "freedom of choice" at all.


I have a funny feeling that quantum physics might opose this theory. I too used to feel this way quite strongly TAFKASH. But there are many oportunities. One might lead to this, while the other leads to that. A chain of events linked together like the Flower of Life. You can go this way or that way or round in circles. You can even go beyond the boundries and create more links.
Just some of my thoughts. I wish I knew more about quantum physics.


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31 Mar 2005, 7:40 pm

vetivert wrote:
erm... have i missed the sarcasm button here? am i going to have to disagree with TAFKASH, for the first time ever? will the world stop spinning in its orbit? is it a bird? is it a plane?

tune in next week - same time, same channel...

oops - got carried away there...


Never mind vetivert, me old mucker - you can't be absolutely right on everything all the time :wink: That's a privilege reserved for me (and maybe God) alone.... :lol:

I stand firmly on what I said - I don't believe that any of us get a real choice on how we live our lives in any real shape or form..... We are all no more than combinations of our nature (the basic clay "building blocks" of which we are composed) and our nurture (the way that clay gets moulded and modified to make up what we are). We just don't get any say in either of these 2 processes, that is to say "no choice", and thence no say at all in the very makeup of our being.

On this week's edition of "Laboured & Obvious Analogy": Adolf Hitler. Old Adolf didn't wake up one morning on the wrong side of bed and decide "You know what? I'm going to be a thorough going cad and do nasty things to lots of people from now on". He didn't answer an ad in the jobs section of the Evening Telegraph: "Wanted: Evil Megalomaniac Dictator. No previous position necessary, but some xenophobic ranting experience preferable. Flexible hours - good opportunities for overtime. Full training provided. May involve travel. The Nazi state is not an equal opportunities employer". The fact is, Hitler was helplessly predisposed to be a raging nutcase: he was made that way due to his terrible childhood, rejection and failure in Vienna and traumatic experiences in WWI, combined with his obvious innate, natural in-built psychoticism and pre-disposition to mental illness. Hitler never made a choice to become what he was - it was purely a collision of circumstances beyond his control that made him. Hitler could no more have chosen to do good for mankind instead than I could choose to start being socially popular.......

Humans are all alike in that we all live our lives in accordance with what is inately "right" in our internal being - none of us can go against that inner voice, and I don't believe any of us can change it. We all do what is "right" to us - it is just the perception of what composes our "right" that is altered by our N&N (as I shall henceforth call it :wink:). To Hitler, starting wars and killing millions was "right". To Gandhi, sacrificing his life and comfort to attempt to liberate the lives of millions was "right". To me, being cynical on BBS boards and lounging around indolently waiting to die is "right". Ain't nothing any of us can do about it.

thechadmaster wrote:
I have faith and thats all i need
See below then see to the left


Eh? I don't get the point of your riposte...... The point of my post was that "I have faith, and that's all I need" is the ultimate symbol of Christianity's inability to address basic, simple questions within its corrupted and self-contradictory belief system..... You basically just seem to be revelling in this logic vacuum..... 8O I really don't understand what you're trying to get at, sorry..... :?


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Bec
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31 Mar 2005, 7:41 pm

TAFKASH wrote:
Sarcastic_Name wrote:
As for Glenn's questions. To be honest, I'm going to have to ask my pastor or someone who knows the Bible better than me to try to answer those. I won't even try, I know my limits when it comes to knowledge.


You're going to have to ask your pastor or someone who knows the Bible better than you to try to answer those??????? Why not try using the mind you were born with to try and answer the questions yourself?


Glenn was asking Christians in general, not Sarcastic_Name specifically. I have a great amount of respect for people when they actually admit that they don't know something. Would you rather have a person admit they don't know the answers, or spout off a bunch of bullsh*t they think is true?

Sarcastic_Name, when I read your post about asking your pastor, you earned my respect.



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31 Mar 2005, 7:56 pm

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
Because all the pastors at my church have been to Christian Seminary School and know things I don't about the Bible.


i.e. They already have all the wrote-learnt half-answers, platitudes, emotional blackmail and implicit threats learned and off down pat.

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
As for how the Bible helps with the qustion should be obvious. It's a guidebook for the religion. If you take it into context and know the history behind it, it could be very useful. And I don't know the Bible very well (bad memory), that's why I'm getting help for Glenn's questions.


No, the Bible is a deliberately mistranslated, selectively ignored and misquoted story book written thousands of years ago by self-serving individuals with no first-hand experience of any of the events they were writing about, and only Chinese-whispers word-of-mouth corruptions passed down through many generations of what the actual events may have been to base their deliberate lies on...... The only thing you can use the Bible as a reliable foundation for is a wobbly table leg.....

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
Wow, I partly agree with you on that one. But, I believe we have two paths to choose from. One with, and one without, God.


Cobblers - I never had the "God" Path to choose from in any form as my basic nature is just so completely anti the very idea of religious belief. I could not at any stage of my life have believed in God any more than I could have flown to Mars by flapping my arms.....


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31 Mar 2005, 8:20 pm

Are you 15 Sarcastic Name?

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31 Mar 2005, 9:12 pm

ElfMan wrote:
TAFKASH wrote:
Quote:
I must respectfully, but very firmly, disagree - none of us chooses or can choose our path through life - we are all clearly pre-ordained in our destinies from the days we are born, and none of us can do anything to alter them in any way. That's basic demonstrable fact matey. The whole "freedom of choice" thing is redundant tosh with no bearing in reality at all. None of us has any real "freedom of choice" at all.


I have a funny feeling that quantum physics might opose this theory.
<snip>
Just some of my thoughts. I wish I knew more about quantum physics.


So do I ...but for what its worth, heres some more of my thinking-

Quantum physics does indeed, at the most fundamental microscopic level, demonstrate that the nature of the universe is indeterminate. There are no “absolutes”; for example, it is impossible to determine both a particle’s position and its velocity. This is not because of our lack of skill or technical ability; it is because in a very real sense the particle does not have both qualities at the same time, but a sort of blurred combination of the two. The more you measure of one quality, the less you can know about the other; the very act of measurement changes the state of the particle.
And of course in the quantum world, all events are notoriously indeterminate; you may be able to givea statistical likelihood of an event happening, but you cannotever predict if an individual event will happen, or when. The famous “thought-experiment” about ‘Schroedinger’s Cat” illustrates the weird fuzziness of the quantum world very nicely (I won't describe it here, since I tend to ramble on enough as it is, but there must be many websites that explain it much better than I could, for those of you who haven’t encountered it before).
But I am not sure how relevant such ideas about quantum physics are when we leave the microscopic world for our macroscopic view of the universe ...or indeed when we consider the ‘spiritual’ or non-physical aspect oif our existence .... our consciousness, in fact. The physicist David Bohm had a theory that there are many ways of looking at reality (paradigms) of which the modern “scientific” view is just one. These paradigms are all valid even though they are not consistent with each other ;it is as though each view of how the universe works is folded up in the structure of reality, and each can only be ‘unfolded’ and viewed separately . Hence Bohm referred to the universe as “Implicate”, or “folded”. (At this point I would point out I am not a scientist so if anyone thinks I have got this wrong, or can explain it better, please do so and help me out here!)
To try and cut a long story short - something I am not good at! - all this suggests that the quantum mechanical view of the universe may not be relevant to the question of whether we truly have free will or not, even if it does suggest a way of considering the question. My personal view is that we do have free will; and if we want to develop spititually and ethically it is our responsibility to learn to exercise it well. Certainly we are all influenced or conditioned by many factors such as our culture, families, education, habit etc ... but to become an enlightened individual we need to question all of these and overcome them.
And I think that this can be done (even if it is indeed very, very difficult). It may even be that some of the things we are taught are valid, but we should at least question them very seriously at some time in our lives , so that if we decide to accept them, it is a conscious choice and we understand the reason for this; it should not be just habit or blind obedience.
I strongly believe that what we make of ourselves in a spiritual or emotional sense is both our choice and our responsibility . At the risk of offending some, for which I apologise in advance! - I think that to suggest that we will be “saved” in some way by accepting the Christian God and putting responsibility for or lives in his hands is nothing but a cop-out. In any case, what on earth is this concept of being ‘saved’? Saved from what? I dont believe we are all born sinners, or tainted by original sin. Or that we are inherently weak, and need an imagined supernatural power to keep us on the straight and narrow. (Such negative beliefs would have no place in Buddhism, anyway, which views mankind in a far more positive way.) Certainly (as Thechadmaster pointed out some posts back) neither the Dalai Lama nor the Buddha himself “died to save mankind” from his sins; why should they? The very concept seems faintly ridiculous, as well as nonsensical. Each person is responsible for his own progress, not some supernatural being who to me at least seems a rather irrational and anthropomorphic creation of the human mind. ( I am still hoping for a reasoned answer to those questions by the way!)
No, I think we _do_ have free will. If the future is viewed as already determined, then perhaps it is our free choices along the way that help determine it.

Glenn (who is really enjoying this discussion even if it leads to long posts!)


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31 Mar 2005, 9:38 pm

thechadmaster wrote:
Quote:
teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs,
Budda did not die to forgive mankind.


Also, this topic was loked for about a day or so, apparently i pissed alot of people off


Why you talk about buddha like hes nobody, he taught the noble truths. Buddha is my homeboy. You legalists are so full of yourselfs. Your obviously trying to start fights rather accomplish anything whatsoever. Martin Luther was right with his statements as the catholic church looks at the pope as god more then the actual god. i grew up in an irish protestant home. they would rip any nearby catholics to shreds. who do you think your fooling with your nonsense? (edit)
AK


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31 Mar 2005, 10:08 pm

Glenn, I'm going to try and answer you questions from a christian point of view. :lol: I am willing to stand corrected

My questions are:-

Quote:
1) Why would an omnipotent god who is the creator and essence of the whole cosmos care a hoot whether his creatures accept him, believe in him or worship him? Unless of course he suffers fromn the all-too-human faults of vanity and jealousy (as I have said before) ! Surely a loving God would be more interested in the happiness and wellbeing of the beings he created. Men can’t harm God, but they can harm each other; wouldnt God therefore concern himself with their actions and motives towards each other?


God does not suffer from human emotions. Everything is a part of his diverse plan. He sent His Son Jesus as a brigde between man and God. Jesus is God but in human form. God gave us free will. He could interfere with our actions but the whole point of going through our actions is to learn from them and grow from them.

Quote:
2) Why would a God who you presumably believe created all mankind (including the atheists as well as those of other religions) condemn to hell a person who, although not a Christsian of any denomination, is neither a sinner or nor an evildoer, but who in fact seeks to do good ? For example I have been fortunate enough to be present at some public lectures, and also some teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs, and he himself certainly would never claim to be infallible or to know everything, but it is difficult to inagine a more positive, caring and joyful man who has devoted his life to helping others. (He also has an infectious sense of humour) To the best of ny knowledge he has never harmed anyone or caused pain. But he doesnt accept the existence of God or recognise Christ as either divine or his saviour. Would such a man be destined for hell by your God? At the risk of sounding offensive, I wouldnt find such an irrationonal, vindictive god worth worshipping.


Because as the Bible states, the only way to enter the Kingdom of heaven is through Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. Who ever beleives in Him will not perish, but have eteranal life.


Quote:
3) Even given that there are evil people, sinners who have caused immense pain and suffering in this world, their crimes - however extensive - are FINITE ....even if only because the are human and at some point they will die! How can a God who is said to be both just and forgiving condemn a sinner to infinite punishment (hell) for a finite sin?

Dam* you got me here!

Quote:
4) We all expect to enjoy the right to believe as we see fit. What I don’t understand though is why anyone should be offended by others who believe different things; or why anyone should think they have a right to try to browbeat others or coerce them into changing their ideas. An interesting discussion is fine; but why do some people seem to find it offensive that others have different religious beliefs?


Ok from my own perspective I would think this has to do with the fear that comes attached to the punishment of eternal hell if disputed. I think a lot of christian's have a sense of "oh no, you are dammed to hell if I don't help you see the light. And I am a sinner if I see that and don't try to help you..dah dah dah..."

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31 Mar 2005, 10:09 pm

Glenn, I'm going to try and answer you questions from a christian point of view. :lol: I am willing to stand corrected

My questions are:-

Quote:
1) Why would an omnipotent god who is the creator and essence of the whole cosmos care a hoot whether his creatures accept him, believe in him or worship him? Unless of course he suffers fromn the all-too-human faults of vanity and jealousy (as I have said before) ! Surely a loving God would be more interested in the happiness and wellbeing of the beings he created. Men can’t harm God, but they can harm each other; wouldnt God therefore concern himself with their actions and motives towards each other?


God does not suffer from human emotions. Everything is a part of his diverse plan. He sent His Son Jesus as a brigde between man and God. Jesus is God but in human form. God gave us free will. He could interfere with our actions but the whole point of going through our actions is to learn from them and grow from them.

Quote:
2) Why would a God who you presumably believe created all mankind (including the atheists as well as those of other religions) condemn to hell a person who, although not a Christsian of any denomination, is neither a sinner or nor an evildoer, but who in fact seeks to do good ? For example I have been fortunate enough to be present at some public lectures, and also some teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs, and he himself certainly would never claim to be infallible or to know everything, but it is difficult to inagine a more positive, caring and joyful man who has devoted his life to helping others. (He also has an infectious sense of humour) To the best of ny knowledge he has never harmed anyone or caused pain. But he doesnt accept the existence of God or recognise Christ as either divine or his saviour. Would such a man be destined for hell by your God? At the risk of sounding offensive, I wouldnt find such an irrationonal, vindictive god worth worshipping.


Because as the Bible states, the only way to enter the Kingdom of heaven is through Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. Who ever beleives in Him will not perish, but have eteranal life.


Quote:
3) Even given that there are evil people, sinners who have caused immense pain and suffering in this world, their crimes - however extensive - are FINITE ....even if only because the are human and at some point they will die! How can a God who is said to be both just and forgiving condemn a sinner to infinite punishment (hell) for a finite sin?

Dam* you got me here!

Quote:
4) We all expect to enjoy the right to believe as we see fit. What I don’t understand though is why anyone should be offended by others who believe different things; or why anyone should think they have a right to try to browbeat others or coerce them into changing their ideas. An interesting discussion is fine; but why do some people seem to find it offensive that others have different religious beliefs?


Ok from my own perspective I would think this has to do with the fear that comes attached to the punishment of eternal hell if disputed. I think a lot of christian's have a sense of "oh no, you are dammed to hell if I don't help you see the light. And I am a sinner if I see that and don't try to help you..dah dah dah..."

How did I do?

ElfMan