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Bec
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19 Oct 2005, 6:41 pm

When I was reading some other threads in this forum (specifically this one and this one) I realised something. The Trinity makes absolutely no sense! It, in itself, is a contradiction. For example (the following comments are from different threads and do not correspond with each other):

Grievous wrote:
He did say that He was there to save all people( a radical idea at the time) Christ did claim to be one with the Father, He was recognized as the Messiah by His followers.


Litguy wrote:
The most obvious instance might be the questioning by Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross.


Christians claim that Jesus is God along with being the Son of God. How is that possible?

When Jesus questioned in the Garden of Gethsemane, was he questioning himself? Also, Jesus refers to God as his father several times in the Bible. So then was he talking to himself?

Why is there no mention of any sort of trinity in the Old Testament? Isn't God eternal and doesn't change? If God is a trinity now, he had to be a trinity then, right?

In the Old Testament there obviously isn't any mention of Jesus as he wasn't born yet, (but if he is God, then he never had to be born because he was always there...) but there isn't any mention of the Holy Spirit/Ghost. Where did the Holy Spirit/Ghost come from?

If one aspect of the Trinity is not the same as the other two aspects, how could each of them be God? The only way for that to work is for there to be three gods according to Christianity. This makes Christians polytheists, however, Christians insist that they are monotheists.

Could the Christians here please explain this to me and answer my questions?



BeeBee
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19 Oct 2005, 7:08 pm

I am certainly not a theologian but here is my take.

I see myself as a mother, an accountant, and a self. I act differently and even think differently depending on the situation and which part of me I am at the time. I have had parts ot me argue with other parts. I see God/parent, Jesus/redemer, and Holy Ghost/sectifier the same way. One person, three aspects (or more).

The adult educator at our Church says part of the issue is the translations of the Bible...that in the orginal languages its closer to aspects than "persons."

I dunno.

BeeBee



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19 Oct 2005, 7:10 pm

Bec wrote:
When I was reading some other threads in this forum (specifically this one and this one) I realised something. The Trinity makes absolutely no sense! It, in itself, is a contradiction. For example (the following comments are from different threads and do not correspond with each other):

Grievous wrote:
He did say that He was there to save all people( a radical idea at the time) Christ did claim to be one with the Father, He was recognized as the Messiah by His followers.


Litguy wrote:
The most obvious instance might be the questioning by Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross.


Christians claim that Jesus is God along with being the Son of God. How is that possible?

Multiple Personality Disorder
Quote:

When Jesus questioned in the Garden of Gethsemane, was he questioning himself? Also, Jesus refers to God as his father several times in the Bible. So then was he talking to himself?
Sometimes the personalities can talk to eachother
Quote:


Why is there no mention of any sort of trinity in the Old Testament? Isn't God eternal and doesn't change? If God is a trinity now, he had to be a trinity then, right?
God likes to keep some secrets in the first Testament to entise people to buy the sequel
Quote:

In the Old Testament there obviously isn't any mention of Jesus as he wasn't born yet, (but if he is God, then he never had to be born because he was always there...) but there isn't any mention of the Holy Spirit/Ghost. Where did the Holy Spirit/Ghost come from?
After Jesus, that whole tongues of fire thing
Quote:


If one aspect of the Trinity is not the same as the other two aspects, how could each of them be God? The only way for that to work is for there to be three gods according to Christianity. This makes Christians polytheists, however, Christians insist that they are monotheists.

Can not the same die have multiple aspects? Granted it could not physically have 3 sides, but still!



Sean
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19 Oct 2005, 7:23 pm

There are extra-dimensional properties to the Trinity that I think help to explain things nicely. Unfortunately, I'll have to get back to you on that later tonight. :(



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19 Oct 2005, 9:39 pm

Here's one link that may or may not be useful:

http://everystudent.com/forum/trinity.html


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irishmic
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19 Oct 2005, 10:35 pm

The trinity is metaphor.

Because of the intricate interconnectedness and expansiveness of the divine, it is often more easily done by splitting the relationship.

Christiantiy does this by placing man at one end, the creative (feminist) spirit in the middle, and the infinite godhead at the far end.

You can view the same pattern in many other faith traditions.
In Hindu there is the atman (emboided soul) and brahman (infinite god head)
In Judaism you have man, Shekinah (spirit in the universe) and G-d.

The ultimate godhead is infinitely unknowable and unapproachable, we can know it only through the play of the spirit in the universe, and its manifistation in man.



Sean
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19 Oct 2005, 11:23 pm

The Trinity is three simultaneous manifestations of one being.

Immagine a flat (length and width, but no height), two-dimensional universe susoended in mid-air, with a little two-dimensional being coming across three circles in his two-dimensinal universe. He would have to walk around each crcle to see that they were circles. What the two-dimemsional cartoon character would have no way of knowing is that the three circles are three fingers that connect to a human hand at a point outside the boundaries of the cartoon character's two dimensional universe. The three seemingly seperate circles are actually one.

This is just an oversimplification of how God the Father Son, and Holy Spirit are three beings, yet one, because they are all connected at a point some where in at least 4 dimensions of space.

Now draw two little stick figure with some sort of background, or at least picture it. Put your hand up against it. If that little stick figure were alive, you would be barely ouside the boundries of it's plane of existance, so it wouldn't be able to see you there, yet you would be closer to it than it could ever physically get to another stick figure or object in it's universe. Likewise, God may not be visible, but He is always right by you, in 4 dimensional space just beyond our plane of existance. You may not see him, but that does not mean that he is not well inside your 3' bubble of personal space.



Grievous
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19 Oct 2005, 11:25 pm

Thagomizer wrote:
Here's one link that may or may not be useful:

http://everystudent.com/forum/trinity.html


Excellent site. Also, the Trinity does not make some sense in the sense that it is so far beyond us. That is what God is--a Being who is so far above us that aspects of Him are naturally not going to make sense to us here. It is like an ant trying to understand a human. The human is just so far beyond the ant. :D



Bec
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19 Oct 2005, 11:48 pm

Thanks for the explanations, everybody. It makes a little more sense now, I think. It is still a little weird, though. :) :?



Grievous
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19 Oct 2005, 11:51 pm

No problem. :D It is weird for me in the sense that I like things concrete, however just because someting is not concrete that does not make it incorrect.



kevv729
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20 Oct 2005, 2:55 am

I personally do not believe in a Trinity myself.

My explaination why:

The Trinity Doctrine (Dogma) is not taught in the Bible.
This Doctrine Dogma, was not established until the 4th century.
It was formulated in the Council of Nicaea in 325 c.e.
This council laid the ground work for the future of this Trinity Doctrine.
The Council of Costantinople of 381 c.e. made the Trinity Doctrine what it is today.

Jesus is: Son of God but not God himself.
The Bible calls Jesus "the firstborn of every creature" Col 1:15;
" firstborn from the dead" Col 1:18;
"that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" Rom 8:29.

Jesus is: Son of God "the only begotten of the Father" John 1:14;
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son" John 3:16.

Jesus is God's servant: Son Jesus said "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do:" John 5:19.
Jesus is God's servant: Son Jesus said " my Father is greater than I" John 14:28.
Jesus is God's servant: Son Jesus said " that they might know thee the only true God" John 17:3; Jesus also said " I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17.

Jesus subjects Himself to God: " then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all" 1 Cor 15:28.

That is just a few scriptures.



irishmic
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20 Oct 2005, 9:22 am

Your history is quite right Keev.
The trinity as it now stands could have only been derived in a Christianity freed from Judaism. This is in large part what the Helenists under Constantine were trying to do. May I add trying to do so rather violently. (See the discussion in Nicea to make Sunday the Sabbath, and what they were willing to do with those who did not agree.)

In Judaism you have man, Shekinah (spirit in the universe) and G-d.
Prior to the rise of a Christianity wholely seperate from Judaism, this would have been the view.



Grievous
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20 Oct 2005, 9:33 am

Actually the Trinity is in Scripture. When Jesus was baptized, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were all present.



kevv729
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20 Oct 2005, 1:21 pm

Grievous wrote:
Actually the Trinity is in Scripture. When Jesus was baptized, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were all present.
The Trinity is not in the Scriptures.

Trinity Definition: There are three divine Persons(the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost or Spirit) each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God...Other statements of dogma emphasize that these three "Persons" are not separate and distinct individuals but are three modes in which the divine essence exists...Trinitarians emphasize their belief that Jesus Christ is God or that Jesus and Holy Ghost or Spirit are God.

Trinity is of Pagan Origins: Egypt had Triad of Horus, Osiris, Isis; Babylon had Triad of Ishtar, Sin, Shamash; and there are many other too. It is as Paganism conquered Christianty.

Jesus never said he was God, God spoke himself during the baptizing of Jesus, the Holy Ghost or Spirit came down as a form of a dove upon Jesus.

Jesus said: Verily, verily, I say to you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. John 13:6.

Yes Jesus is divine but he is not greater than His God and Father and our God and Father. For the Trinity makes them all equal and they are not equal.

For when God spoke: lo a voice from the heavens saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 3:17.

When Jesus was baptized he saw: lo, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him. Matthew 3:16.

Holy Ghost or Spirit is as Jesus said:But the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

Just some more things to think about.



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20 Oct 2005, 2:07 pm

The Bible does not clearly explain the Trinity, but it does explicitly say that Jesus is God, and has always been God.

John 1:1-2 wrote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.


From the context of the chapter there is no doubt that "the Word" is Jesus.