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How to punish Hate Crimes?

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thinkinginpictures
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23 Jul 2018, 9:07 am

How should hate-crimes against disabled be punished?

What do you say?

Why? Why not? Present arguments for/against, please!



Last edited by thinkinginpictures on 23 Jul 2018, 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

kraftiekortie
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23 Jul 2018, 9:09 am

I think a stint in jail would be enough....

And being made to take sensitivity classes.

Or maybe getting the crap kicked out of them, too.



Daniel89
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23 Jul 2018, 9:10 am

I disagree with the concept of Hate crimes. The idea of punishing someone more severely because they assaulted someone with a different skin colour is insane to me.

I do believe people who attack the vulnerable should be punished harsher though.



Fnord
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23 Jul 2018, 9:14 am

The term "Hate Crime" labels a PC concept imposed on the legal system by left-leaning SJWs, and should therefore be abolished.



thinkinginpictures
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23 Jul 2018, 9:15 am

Daniel89 wrote:
I disagree with the concept of Hate crimes. The idea of punishing someone more severely because they assaulted someone with a different skin colour is insane to me.

I do believe people who attack the vulnerable should be punished harsher though.


I am specifically asking in relation to disability hate crimes, not hate crimes because of politics. I don't believe crimes because of political opinions should be punished any more severe, than ordinary crimes.

But crimes committing because of hatred towards the disabled/vulnerable, should be punished severely. The question is, how.



Last edited by thinkinginpictures on 23 Jul 2018, 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

thinkinginpictures
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23 Jul 2018, 9:17 am

Fnord wrote:
The term "Hate Crime" labels a PC concept imposed on the legal system by left-leaning SJWs, and should therefore be abolished.


Why should it not be aggravating circumstances of crimes committing against disabled because of their disabilities?

Do you believe it is as equally right/wrong to commit a crime because of the victim's disability, as it is to commit the crime because of other less severe reasons?

Also, what is wrong with social justice? I am not talking about Social Justice Warriors who only believe in their cause because of social "points" and conformity, I'm talking about real social justice, something where people demand equal rights, opportunities etc. and free from hate crimes based on being disabled (ie. autistic).



Daniel89
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23 Jul 2018, 9:35 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
I disagree with the concept of Hate crimes. The idea of punishing someone more severely because they assaulted someone with a different skin colour is insane to me.

I do believe people who attack the vulnerable should be punished harsher though.


I am specifically asking in relation to disability hate crimes, not hate crimes because of politics. I don't believe crimes because of political opinions should be punished any more severe, than ordinary crimes.

But crimes committing because of hatred towards the disabled/vulnerable, should be punished severely. The question is, how.


I don't think people should be punished harsher for committing a crime against someone because they hate them for being disabled.

I do believe someone should be punished harsher for committing a crime against someone who is vulnerable whether they be disabled, elderly or a child. Whether that crime be assault or financial.



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23 Jul 2018, 9:35 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The term "Hate Crime" labels a PC concept imposed on the legal system by left-leaning SJWs, and should therefore be abolished.
Why should it not be aggravating circumstances of crimes committing against disabled because of their disabilities? Do you believe it is as equally right/wrong to commit a crime because of the victim's disability, as it is to commit the crime because of other less severe reasons? Also, what is wrong with social justice? I am not talking about Social Justice Warriors who only believe in their cause because of social "points" and conformity, I'm talking about real social justice, something where people demand equal rights, opportunities etc. and free from hate crimes based on being disabled (ie. autistic).
Motivation is irrelevant, except in determining whether the crime was unintentional, incidental, or pre-meditated.

Increasing the penalty for alleged "hate" is making anything but pure love a crime -- a Thought Crime. Do you really think is necessary and correct to increase the penalty for a crime merely because a third party says it was motivated by hate? Would you want to be charged with a hate crime for accidentally cutting off another driver who just happened to be a minority? Really?

If "Hate" is a crime, then half the country should be locked up for the remainder of the Trump administration.



Daniel89
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23 Jul 2018, 9:36 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The term "Hate Crime" labels a PC concept imposed on the legal system by left-leaning SJWs, and should therefore be abolished.


Why should it not be aggravating circumstances of crimes committing against disabled because of their disabilities?

Do you believe it is as equally right/wrong to commit a crime because of the victim's disability, as it is to commit the crime because of other less severe reasons?

Also, what is wrong with social justice? I am not talking about Social Justice Warriors who only believe in their cause because of social "points" and conformity, I'm talking about real social justice, something where people demand equal rights, opportunities etc. and free from hate crimes based on being disabled (ie. autistic).


Whats wrong with Justice? Why does Justice need to be social justice?



thinkinginpictures
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23 Jul 2018, 9:40 am

Fnord wrote:
Increasing the penalty for alleged "hate" is making anything but pure love a crime -- a Thought Crime. Do you really think is necessary and correct to increase the penalty for a crime merely because a third party says it was motivated by hate? Would you want to be charged with a hate crime for accidentally cutting off another driver who just happened to be a minority? Really?

If "Hate" is a crime, then half the country should be locked up for the remainder of the Trump administration.


I understand your point, but I disagree. If a recorded video with audio and several witnesses all state that the crime was committing while shouting at the victim: "I HATE autistics, I hate you people, autistics should suffer, go away autists!" - then that's a hate crime, and there is clear evidence.

If however, it just happens to be a random victim who was randomly shot on the street, because of a gun fight between gangs, and it turns out it was an autistic, there is no evidence to support i was a hate crime, and should not be treated as such.



thinkinginpictures
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23 Jul 2018, 9:48 am

Daniel89 wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The term "Hate Crime" labels a PC concept imposed on the legal system by left-leaning SJWs, and should therefore be abolished.


Why should it not be aggravating circumstances of crimes committing against disabled because of their disabilities?

Do you believe it is as equally right/wrong to commit a crime because of the victim's disability, as it is to commit the crime because of other less severe reasons?

Also, what is wrong with social justice? I am not talking about Social Justice Warriors who only believe in their cause because of social "points" and conformity, I'm talking about real social justice, something where people demand equal rights, opportunities etc. and free from hate crimes based on being disabled (ie. autistic).


Whats wrong with Justice? Why does Justice need to be social justice?


People are not equals. Some a high, some are low, some are rich others are poor. And some are in-between.

In order to provide equal opportunities for everyone, we need to treat people differently, as individuals rather than "one size fits all".

If you have tree with fruits and the fruits are the only available foods, those who have more height will be able to pick the fruits, while those who are dwarfs will have none. Either you need to provide something they can stand on to pick the fruits, or you need to have a Social Justice that entitles them the right to a portion of the fruits other people picked. Like taxation to provide welfare.

You also need to punish those who remove the box or chair the dwarfs are standing on, to pick the fruits, even though removing a chair in itself may not be such a high crime itself if done to others. It has more serious consequences removing the chair from the dwarf trying to pick fruits, than removing the chair from someone who didn't need it anyway.

That's social justice.



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23 Jul 2018, 9:55 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Increasing the penalty for alleged "hate" is making anything but pure love a crime -- a Thought Crime. Do you really think is necessary and correct to increase the penalty for a crime merely because a third party says it was motivated by hate? Would you want to be charged with a hate crime for accidentally cutting off another driver who just happened to be a minority? Really?If "Hate" is a crime, then half the country should be locked up for the remainder of the Trump administration.
I understand your point, but I disagree. If a recorded video with audio and several witnesses all state that the crime was committing while shouting at the victim: "I HATE autistics, I hate you people, autistics should suffer, go away autists!" - then that's a hate crime, and there is clear evidence. If however, it just happens to be a random victim who was randomly shot on the street, because of a gun fight between gangs, and it turns out it was an autistic, there is no evidence to support it was a hate crime, and should not be treated as such.
Why do you have to be so bleeping reasonable? :wink:

In the former case, I would say that it is clear that the crime was intentional (a "1st-degree" crime), while the latter was unintentional, but with the extenuating circumstance of occurring during the commission of another crime (a "2nd-degree" offense).

Otherwise, I see a "Slippery Slope" in the works -- "Hate" is now a crime if it is displayed during the commission of another crime. Soon, saying something like "I hate Chump*" may also get you arrested. How soon after that will not "Liking" what Chump* says on Facebook be a crime? When will voting against Chump* result in arrest?

(* - "Chump" is a hypothetical political leader or "Strawman" used for the sake of the argument.)



Daniel89
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23 Jul 2018, 10:06 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:

People are not equals. Some a high, some are low, some are rich others are poor. And some are in-between.

In order to provide equal opportunities for everyone, we need to treat people differently, as individuals rather than "one size fits all".

If you have tree with fruits and the fruits are the only available foods, those who have more height will be able to pick the fruits, while those who are dwarfs will have none. Either you need to provide something they can stand on to pick the fruits, or you need to have a Social Justice that entitles them the right to a portion of the fruits other people picked. Like taxation to provide welfare.

You also need to punish those who remove the box or chair the dwarfs are standing on, to pick the fruits, even though removing a chair in itself may not be such a high crime itself if done to others. It has more serious consequences removing the chair from the dwarf trying to pick fruits, than removing the chair from someone who didn't need it anyway.

That's social justice.


That's not justice though, that is the state behaving unjust. People are not going to have equal opportunities in life, That state attempting to do so often just ends up punishing innocent people. I know this from personal experience I grew up in "relative poverty" for most of my life but when I was in senior school my mother became a teacher. When I went to college at 16 everyone else was given a payment of £30 a week from the government because their parents where on low incomes, my mum gave me the £30 the first year but the second year she decided not too. This further alienated me from society, it ruined my life. The state treated me unequally and that is injustice.



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23 Jul 2018, 10:31 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Increasing the penalty for alleged "hate" is making anything but pure love a crime -- a Thought Crime. Do you really think is necessary and correct to increase the penalty for a crime merely because a third party says it was motivated by hate? Would you want to be charged with a hate crime for accidentally cutting off another driver who just happened to be a minority? Really?

If "Hate" is a crime, then half the country should be locked up for the remainder of the Trump administration.


I understand your point, but I disagree. If a recorded video with audio and several witnesses all state that the crime was committing while shouting at the victim: "I HATE autistics, I hate you people, autistics should suffer, go away autists!" - then that's a hate crime, and there is clear evidence.


Hate crime laws are often the government adding extra punishment because of opinion and thus a curb on free speech. The crime is not free speech, the opinion is.

Instead of more punishment for hate crimes against the disabled, how about stop excusing giving lighter sentences to people who commit crimes against the disabled because the victim is so "weird" it must have been his or her fault or it's so hard to raise them? What would happen to a judge who gave a lighter sentence to a rapist because the victim was scantily dressed thus it was partially her fault? Why is similar thinking somewhat accepted in ableist motivated crimes?

I am very cynical about sensitivity training, especially for criminals. How are a few hours or even a lot of hours of sensitivity training going to make a bigot into an accepting person?


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23 Jul 2018, 10:42 am

How about dropping the "Hate" charges, and simply jacking up the sentence for everyone to the point where it would have been with the "Hate" charges?



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23 Jul 2018, 11:27 am

How to punish hate crimes, whatever you decide that means, or anything else you choose to regard as a crime? Easy peasy: abolish the state, make your own group of vigilantes and brutalize whomever you want, with any excuse you want, or with no excuse at all :D


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