Social Mobility In Decline In Britain, Official Survey Finds

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blitzkrieg
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22 Sep 2023, 7:28 am

This article is three years old, but it still rings true today. I found this particular quote interesting:

"Just under a third of people in the north-east said they felt they had a good chance to get on in life in their own region, compared with 74% of those in the south-east and 78% of Londoners.

The commission said the survey, carried out for its annual social mobility barometer, revealed deep unease in many regions about whether people had the same access to good education, jobs and housing as those living in the more prosperous south."


There really is a north/south divide in the UK. I suppose it might be similar in the US, in terms of the variation between different states, particularly the wealthy states versus those of lower ranking economic status?

Link below:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/21/social-mobility-decline-britain-official-survey-finds



Mrs.Gone
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22 Sep 2023, 9:29 am

I think social mobility is in decline pretty much everywhere in the Western world (will look for relevant sources if I can must up the energy). Simply put: If all the "nepo babies" get to have the fun and highly paid jobs via some kind of quasi automatic blue-blood "birth right", well the "lower casts" born into families of sanitation workers and grocery clerks get the... well, not so fun jobs since that's all there is left. Not that there's anything wrong with sanitation workers and grocery clerks: They were labeled as "heroes" during the pandemic and rightly so.


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MaxE
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22 Sep 2023, 10:40 am

blitzkrieg wrote:
There really is a north/south divide in the UK. I suppose it might be similar in the US, in terms of the variation between different states, particularly the wealthy states versus those of lower ranking economic status?

Link below:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/21/social-mobility-decline-britain-official-survey-finds

In the US, I doubt it has much to do with which state one lives in.

I happen to think social mobility to be a bit of a myth. Of course, England is famous for being socially stratified, Shaw's Pygmalion was all about that. But in any society you're going to have a few superstars who get to University and have brilliant careers despite having been born to humble parents.

The US was an unusual case and could be where the whole notion of "social mobility" originated. So if you know any history, the fact is that the US basically cashed in on WWII. The US re-industrialized for the war effort, and when the war ended, there was a ton of industrial capacity while industry in Europe and Asia had been destroyed. Men who had grown up in rural poverty or in poor neighborhoods during the Depression were soon being paid handsomely to work in factories while their wives stayed home in bright shining mass-produced houses with a "station wagon" (estate car) in every garage. So millions had climbed out of poverty and somehow the belief took hold that each generation would be better off than the previous. I don't think this was ever true.


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blitzkrieg
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22 Sep 2023, 11:46 am

MaxE wrote:
blitzkrieg wrote:
There really is a north/south divide in the UK. I suppose it might be similar in the US, in terms of the variation between different states, particularly the wealthy states versus those of lower ranking economic status?

Link below:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/21/social-mobility-decline-britain-official-survey-finds

In the US, I doubt it has much to do with which state one lives in.

I happen to think social mobility to be a bit of a myth. Of course, England is famous for being socially stratified, Shaw's Pygmalion was all about that. But in any society you're going to have a few superstars who get to University and have brilliant careers despite having been born to humble parents.

The US was an unusual case and could be where the whole notion of "social mobility" originated. So if you know any history, the fact is that the US basically cashed in on WWII. The US re-industrialized for the war effort, and when the war ended, there was a ton of industrial capacity while industry in Europe and Asia had been destroyed. Men who had grown up in rural poverty or in poor neighborhoods during the Depression were soon being paid handsomely to work in factories while their wives stayed home in bright shining mass-produced houses with a "station wagon" (estate car) in every garage. So millions had climbed out of poverty and somehow the belief took hold that each generation would be better off than the previous. I don't think this was ever true.


How is it a myth?

Also, you legitimately just pointed out an example of social mobility, so that is kind of at odds with stating that it is a myth.

Social mobility has stunted in the west, as Mrs.Gone implies above and it is difficult to even educate one's way up the social ladder these days, the social ladder which is as important to most jobs as any technical skills for a particular role, are.

People from disadvantaged backgrounds consistently fare worser than those born into more money, even when they match richer folk with educational attainments and so on. And today, it is even more true with the housing crisis of houses often being unaffordable without the bank of Mum & Dad, the access to which is often a lotto of social class position.



Mrs.Gone
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22 Sep 2023, 12:16 pm

"People from disadvantaged backgrounds consistently fare worser than those born into more money, even when they match richer folk with educational attainments and so on. And today, it is even more true with the housing crisis of houses often being unaffordable without the bank of Mum & Dad"... (Sorry, I don't know how to use the quote function for a small part of the post).

French sociologist Pierre Bourdieu has published a book in the 60s (The Inheritors) to explain how students from disadvantaged backgrounds, even when they worked hard, did not have the same access to "Culture" (capital C) than students from privileged backgrounds. i.e.: the academic system tends to reproduce social inequalities at an early age.

But it's even worst nowadays in this era of "instant celebrity" (via social media, press concentration and the likes): Bourdieu's notions of "symbolic capital" (family notoriety, etc), "social capital" (network, contacts for "leg up") and "cultural capital" still hold true but are multiplied by an easy, almost instant access to higher positions on the social ladder for those born with vast amounts of all these forms of capital (capital is not simply money: your parents' notoriety and position on the higher rungs of the social ladder can be "inherited" too and the "bank of Mom and Dad" passes on more than just money and paid houses to the "inheritors"). Add a perennial housing crisis to the mix and, yes, social mobility is pretty much a thing of the past. According to Bourdieu it never really existed anyway.


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MaxE
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22 Sep 2023, 12:25 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:
MaxE wrote:
In the US, I doubt it has much to do with which state one lives in.

I happen to think social mobility to be a bit of a myth. Of course, England is famous for being socially stratified, Shaw's Pygmalion was all about that. But in any society you're going to have a few superstars who get to University and have brilliant careers despite having been born to humble parents.

The US was an unusual case and could be where the whole notion of "social mobility" originated. So if you know any history, the fact is that the US basically cashed in on WWII. The US re-industrialized for the war effort, and when the war ended, there was a ton of industrial capacity while industry in Europe and Asia had been destroyed. Men who had grown up in rural poverty or in poor neighborhoods during the Depression were soon being paid handsomely to work in factories while their wives stayed home in bright shining mass-produced houses with a "station wagon" (estate car) in every garage. So millions had climbed out of poverty and somehow the belief took hold that each generation would be better off than the previous. I don't think this was ever true.


How is it a myth?

Also, you legitimately just pointed out an example of social mobility, so that is kind of at odds with stating that it is a myth.

This response somewhat confuses me. It's a myth because like the Golden Fleece it never really existed. My "legitimate example" was intended to address an anomaly that then contributed to the myth, when the US was booming and the rest of the world was struggling to recover from WWII.


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blitzkrieg
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22 Sep 2023, 3:00 pm

Mrs.Gone wrote:
"People from disadvantaged backgrounds consistently fare worser than those born into more money, even when they match richer folk with educational attainments and so on. And today, it is even more true with the housing crisis of houses often being unaffordable without the bank of Mum & Dad"... (Sorry, I don't know how to use the quote function for a small part of the post).

French sociologist Pierre Bourdieu has published a book in the 60s (The Inheritors) to explain how students from disadvantaged backgrounds, even when they worked hard, did not have the same access to "Culture" (capital C) than students from privileged backgrounds. i.e.: the academic system tends to reproduce social inequalities at an early age.

But it's even worst nowadays in this era of "instant celebrity" (via social media, press concentration and the likes): Bourdieu's notions of "symbolic capital" (family notoriety, etc), "social capital" (network, contacts for "leg up") and "cultural capital" still hold true but are multiplied by an easy, almost instant access to higher positions on the social ladder for those born with vast amounts of all these forms of capital (capital is not simply money: your parents' notoriety and position on the higher rungs of the social ladder can be "inherited" too and the "bank of Mom and Dad" passes on more than just money and paid houses to the "inheritors"). Add a perennial housing crisis to the mix and, yes, social mobility is pretty much a thing of the past. According to Bourdieu it never really existed anyway.


Interesting discussion, Mrs.Gone. Thank you for replying. :)



KitLily
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22 Sep 2023, 3:05 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:
There really is a north/south divide in the UK.


Yes, it's been like that for a few decades now :(


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blitzkrieg
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22 Sep 2023, 4:01 pm

KitLily wrote:
blitzkrieg wrote:
There really is a north/south divide in the UK.


Yes, it's been like that for a few decades now :(


Yep!

Although the north is cheaper, the wages are terrible and jobs scarce.

Plus, the UK government spends a lot less outside of London & its surrounding areas on public services and infrastructure.



goldfish21
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26 Sep 2023, 2:07 pm

Nose diving in Canada.


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blitzkrieg
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26 Sep 2023, 2:23 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Nose diving in Canada.


Oh dear. :|