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Russia could use chemical weapons in Ukraine

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magz
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12 Mar 2022, 7:12 am

Well...

Mikah wrote:
Again, welcome to the real world, magz. It's cold and dark down here.
These are your words. And these are not words of someone who had good experiences.


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Mikah
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12 Mar 2022, 7:23 am

magz wrote:
Well...
Mikah wrote:
Again, welcome to the real world, magz. It's cold and dark down here.
These are your words. And these are not words of someone who had good experiences.


It is not about my personal experiences, only my knowledge of international relations. "Bullying" for lack of a better term happens all the time, sometimes in plain sight, sometimes in private rooms. Organisations like the EU do it while wearing flowers in their hair, but they bully and threaten nonetheless to get what they want. They literally just sanctioned Poland and Hungary and for what?


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magz
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12 Mar 2022, 7:29 am

Mikah wrote:
They literally just sanctioned Poland and Hungary and for what?
For legislation directly against the very foundations of EU - media freedom in Hungary and judicary independence in Poland.
You don't play to the rules of our exclusive club, you don't get benefits of our exclusive club.
That's not bullying, that's rulekeeping.


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Mikah
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12 Mar 2022, 7:31 am

It is the exercise of power over someone weaker and unwilling.


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magz
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12 Mar 2022, 7:31 am

Mikah wrote:
It is the exercise of power over someone weaker and unwilling.

Just like a policeman arresting a thief?


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Mikah
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12 Mar 2022, 7:33 am

magz wrote:
Mikah wrote:
It is the exercise of power over someone weaker and unwilling.

Just like a policeman arresting a thief?


The threat or act of violence and discomfort lies under all human hierarchies, political systems and their interactions.


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magz
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12 Mar 2022, 7:38 am

Mikah wrote:
The threat or act of violence and discomfort lies under all human hierarchies, political systems and their interactions.
But various human hierarchies and political systems can result in very different security situations.
Bully-or-be-bullied is much less safe than abide-the-law-or-get-punished.


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12 Mar 2022, 7:40 am

magz wrote:
Bully-or-be-bullied is much less safe than keep-to-the-rules-or-you-get-punished.


The latter is just an abstraction on top of the former. Underneath it all lies bigger-army or bigger-economy diplomacy.


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magz
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12 Mar 2022, 7:52 am

Mikah wrote:
magz wrote:
Bully-or-be-bullied is much less safe than keep-to-the-rules-or-you-get-punished.
The latter is just an abstraction on top of the former. Underneath it all lies bigger-army or bigger-economy diplomacy.
Not abstraction layer, rather a sublimated version of the former.
But what matters, it creates different dynamics and results in increased predictability and overall safety.


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kraftiekortie
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12 Mar 2022, 7:53 am

Try actually LIVING in Putin’s Russia when you’ve had a lifelong taste of considerable personal freedoms.

Especially the Russia post-Ukraine invasion.

It’s a pity, really. Russia has many talented people who would have blossomed under a Western-type setup.



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12 Mar 2022, 8:10 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Try actually LIVING in Putin’s Russia when you’ve had a lifelong taste of considerable personal freedoms.
This is exactly the Ukrainian perspective.


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12 Mar 2022, 9:12 am

Pepe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
magz wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Russia's desire to maintain a sphere of influence at any cost is the main factor driving former Warsaw Pact nations and SSRs to seek protection from the west.
Indeed.
We joined NATO in the 1990s exactly to get some protection from being where Ukraine is now. We knew some day it may happen... and it did. This time not to us but my faith in art 5 is only moderate.


Agreed. A part of me feels like the West isn't anymore committed to Poland than it was the last time that got tested. I'm cynical, I hope it isn't tested and that if it is I hope I'm wrong, but... I'm not very hopeful either.


NATO's decision to increase defence spending says otherwise.


Didn't France and the UK increase military spending right before the last time they failed Poland? :scratch:

An increase in military spending says nothing about how that force will be used.


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12 Mar 2022, 7:32 pm

Mikah wrote:

Pepe wrote:
Is it because you feel threatened by what others have said in response to your argument?
"Curious". 8)


And now the armchair psychologists direct their diagnostic super powers away from Putin towards me.


This is what happens when you try to devalue my contribution.
You seem to be uncharacteristically playing "One-upmanship" for some reason, *imo*.

You have been supercilious, disrespectful, and dismissive.
My *assumption*, not an accusation, is that you are feeling defensive.
Why else would you be attempting to undermine my credibility via ad hominems?

If you have a better explanation for your dismissiveness, I'd like to hear it.
I am open-minded. 8)

N.B.
I was initially presenting you with a question.
I wasn't being judgemental.



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12 Mar 2022, 7:37 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Try actually LIVING in Putin’s Russia when you’ve had a lifelong taste of considerable personal freedoms.

Especially the Russia post-Ukraine invasion.

It’s a pity, really. Russia has many talented people who would have blossomed under a Western-type setup.


If xi invades Australia, "I'd rather be dead than red", seriously. 8)



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12 Mar 2022, 7:56 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Pepe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
magz wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Russia's desire to maintain a sphere of influence at any cost is the main factor driving former Warsaw Pact nations and SSRs to seek protection from the west.
Indeed.
We joined NATO in the 1990s exactly to get some protection from being where Ukraine is now. We knew some day it may happen... and it did. This time not to us but my faith in art 5 is only moderate.


Agreed. A part of me feels like the West isn't anymore committed to Poland than it was the last time that got tested. I'm cynical, I hope it isn't tested and that if it is I hope I'm wrong, but... I'm not very hopeful either.


NATO's decision to increase defence spending says otherwise.


Didn't France and the UK increase military spending right before the last time they failed Poland? :scratch:

An increase in military spending says nothing about how that force will be used.


*The German industrial powerhouse is part of NATO, now.
*Europe* is now unified against an expansionist tyranny.
*Ammmuuuria is still the most powerful non-nuclear military in the world.
*Collectively, NATO has a bigger nuclear arsenal than pootin's Russia.
*pootin's Russia is already suffering economically big time.
*pootin's "invincible" army has been humiliated, despite him having relocated his best troops to Ukraine.

Did you think this intelligent psychopath can't see that a war with *NATO* is a bad idea after the humiliating experience against a very poor country, devoid of significant military might like Ukraine?

Rhetorical question.

Things are different than they were in 1939.

BTW, in addition to losing many high ranking officers including 2 generals in the war, pootin has sacked 10 generals, based on what a trusted news source has said.

If pootin didn't have the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world, he wouldn't be taken seriously.
The only "rabbit out of his hat" pootin has is his unholy alliance with xi.



funeralxempire
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12 Mar 2022, 9:03 pm

Pepe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Pepe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
magz wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Russia's desire to maintain a sphere of influence at any cost is the main factor driving former Warsaw Pact nations and SSRs to seek protection from the west.
Indeed.
We joined NATO in the 1990s exactly to get some protection from being where Ukraine is now. We knew some day it may happen... and it did. This time not to us but my faith in art 5 is only moderate.


Agreed. A part of me feels like the West isn't anymore committed to Poland than it was the last time that got tested. I'm cynical, I hope it isn't tested and that if it is I hope I'm wrong, but... I'm not very hopeful either.


NATO's decision to increase defence spending says otherwise.


Didn't France and the UK increase military spending right before the last time they failed Poland? :scratch:

An increase in military spending says nothing about how that force will be used.


*The German industrial powerhouse is part of NATO, now.
*Europe* is now unified against an expansionist tyranny.
*Ammmuuuria is still the most powerful non-nuclear military in the world.
*Collectively, NATO has a bigger nuclear arsenal than pootin's Russia.
*pootin's Russia is already suffering economically big time.
*pootin's "invincible" army has been humiliated, despite him having relocated his best troops to Ukraine.

Did you think this intelligent psychopath can't see that a war with *NATO* is a bad idea after the humiliating experience against a very poor country, devoid of significant military might like Ukraine?

Rhetorical question.

Things are different than they were in 1939.

BTW, in addition to losing many high ranking officers including 2 generals in the war, pootin has sacked 10 generals, based on what a trusted news source has said.

If pootin didn't have the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world, he wouldn't be taken seriously.
The only "rabbit out of his hat" pootin has is his unholy alliance with xi.


Things are different in that the likely adversary won't be the same.

It's yet to be seen if things are different in terms of who France and the UK choose to honour treaties with. While I hope that they can be trusted I don't believe my skepticism is misplaced. Time will tell.

Ideally we won't have to find out.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.