Russia could use chemical weapons in Ukraine

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Matrix Glitch
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10 Mar 2022, 4:43 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
There were oral agreements to cease expansion of NATO past Germany, but no formal ones. That is correct. But that still doesn't negate the fact that expanding NATO towards Russia's borders was dangerous business. Imagine if the U.S. had foreign armies and missles lined up along its border with Mexico? Do you think we wouldn't react in a similar fashion?

Nobody's hands are clean in this, unfortunately. I will never condone invasions of the type Putin has perpetrated, but full context of how we got to this dangerous place needs to be discussed.


Isn't the problem with Russia under Putin remaining a sinister entity, rather than being a normal European country?



Matrix Glitch
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10 Mar 2022, 4:46 pm

Mikah wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
So Putin is protecting Russia from being attacked by NATO via Ukraine?


They believe so. As much as the U.S. believed its actions during the Cuban missile crisis was protecting the U.S.


What's keeping Russia so segregated from the rest of Europe?



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10 Mar 2022, 5:00 pm

magz wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
There were oral agreements to cease expansion of NATO past Germany, but no formal ones. That is correct. But that still doesn't negate the fact that expanding NATO towards Russia's borders was dangerous business. Imagine if the U.S. had foreign armies and missles lined up along its border with Mexico? Do you think we wouldn't react in a similar fashion?

Nobody's hands are clean in this, unfortunately. I will never condone invasions of the type Putin has perpetrated, but full context of how we got to this dangerous place needs to be discussed.

Living next to Russia is a dangerous business and that's why East European states ask to join NATO.
If NATO didn't expand, the shelled city today would have been Warsaw, not Kiev. That's all the differrence.
The imperial narrative of Putin has been pretty consistent for many years.


It's a lot more complex than that. The expansion of NATO was an arms race that made defense contractors a s**t ton of money.

Nobody in power cares about the people who will suffer in this war. The United States certainly doesn't care, we have done equally horrible s**t as Russia is doing now.

What is the solution to this conflict?


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10 Mar 2022, 5:09 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
It's preposterous to believe that there is any justification for what the Russians are doing.

It's ridiculous to put any spin on the situation-----other than Russia invading a sovereign country with the intention of making it unsovereign. All for the obsolete concept of a "Great Russia."

And they're committing war crimes in the process. They are playing very dirty pool.


It's preposterous to justify the invasion, but not preposterous to give the full context of how this crisis happened.

It wasn't unprovoked. The U.S. and NATO bear a part of the responsiblity for this invasion. After the unification of Germany, NATO agreed not to push further east into countries that were part of the former USSR. But they didn't comply, and kept pushing towards Russia's borders arming the NATO countries to the teeth.

Again, it doesn't justify this invasion. But rather tired of not getting the whole truth from our sh***y media.


How long has pootin been encroaching into other sovereign countries?

I don't know the history very well, (perhaps someone could enlighten us) but based on this simple view, any suggestion that pootin doesn't have or hasn't had Russian imperialistic intent for decades is a logical nonsense, imo.
All he needed was an excuse to invade.

Countries have been running toward NATO *for a f*****g reason*. ;)
It was *always* an ego trip for this former KGB thug.

Hitler used these political tactics of the reunification of oppressed people, also.
However, it is interesting to note that Ukraine is saying no, *emphatically*.



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10 Mar 2022, 5:09 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
So Putin is protecting Russia from being attacked by NATO via Ukraine?


They believe so. As much as the U.S. believed its actions during the Cuban missile crisis was protecting the U.S.


What's keeping Russia so segregated from the rest of Europe?

Russia may have an inferiority complex and feel like the ugly step-child compared to Europe.


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10 Mar 2022, 5:12 pm

Mikah wrote:
magz wrote:
It's no time for mocking.
It's freaking happening here.


If you want to terrorise or depopulate an area (itself a questionable claim to make of Russian forces in Ukraine right now) there are plenty of legal and more effective weapons that will do the trick, with a much lower chance of killing friendlies; weapons that don't also helpfully give various countries yet another casus belli against Russia. It makes no sense for Russia to do this, just as it didn't make sense for Assad to use them when his war was winding down. You don't even have to investigate to know that it's BS war propaganda. The false flag attacks will no doubt come next, just as they did in Syria.

Unless you actually want this war to escalate to the point where nuclear armed powers are fighting each other over such a completely stupid and avoidable conflict, you must take a stand against this propaganda.

Precisely.

Mass hysteria is not productive.



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10 Mar 2022, 5:16 pm

Mikah wrote:
Putin is neither a comic book villain, nor an idiot.


But he could very possibly be the catalyst for WWIII, with his little mate, xi.



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10 Mar 2022, 5:21 pm

Certainly, Russia will experience lots of “brain drain” as a result of this invasion.

It will undo all the progress that Russia has made over the last 20 or so years.

Conditions equivalent to the late Soviet era will be the order of the day.



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10 Mar 2022, 5:23 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
What's keeping Russia so segregated from the rest of Europe?


It's a good question. The primary answer is that the U.S. and much of Europe desires it to be so. Putin actually asked to join NATO in his early days and made noises about greater economic integration with the EU. Many Russians are enamoured with Europe and would love to be closer to it than they are. The reason Russia was denied NATO membership is the same reason European powers (often with the U.S. hissing in their ears like Gríma) have nixed or refused to even consider sort of real economic integration. It is because it would tilt the balance of power in directions many European countries and especially the U.S. would not want.

For Europe, the balance of power would shift further eastwards into a sort of German-Russian industrial superbase, such is the enormous size, material wealth and economic potential of Russia. This is an unattractive prospect for many EU member states, and even the UK, already wilting at the edges of the German economic reich EU unified market. For the U.S. geopolitically, it would shift the balance of power on the entire Eurasian continent, away from its satrapy Germany and its EU orbiters, over which it has reasonably tight control where it matters and cordial relations otherwise. There is good reason that one of the longest standing foreign policy goals of the U.S. has always been to prevent any sort of Russian-German rapprochement, because they would be a major contender for American influence across Eurasia, perhaps even leading to American isolation.

Very short version: it's that old friend, divide and conquer.


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10 Mar 2022, 5:26 pm

Mikah wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
At what point is Putin doing what makes sense?


It makes perfect sense. Imagine if Quebec or some other part of Canada became independent, then entered a military alliance with the Russian Federation, the Russians salivating at the prospect of planting weapon systems along the northern U.S. border. At what point in that story would the U.S. intervene? Would the U.S. respect the sovereignty of said independent Canadians? Or would the Munroe Doctrine still stand? The answer of course is the hypothetical independent Canadians desperate to be buddies with Russia would find themselves subject to torrents of propaganda and money and NGOs f*****g around, CIA-lead coup-d'etats and perhaps even direct military action, which is where Ukraine now finds itself.


At this time, that is a ludicrous "hypothetical". :lmao:
And Russia should "hypothetically" buy back better Alaska first.
I like the Cuba example better.

However, I have always seen Russia's security issues concerning NATO's encroachment.
But once again, why are countries so desperate to join NATO?
They are fearful of that thug pootin.

I think we have a "chicken or the egg" situation here.



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10 Mar 2022, 5:28 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
It's a lot more complex than that. The expansion of NATO was an arms race that made defense contractors a s**t ton of money.
Actually, 1990s were time of global de-arming.

VegetableMan wrote:
Nobody in power cares about the people who will suffer in this war. The United States certainly doesn't care, we have done equally horrible s**t as Russia is doing now.
And the British did bad things in their colonies - should they have not been fighting Hitler?

VegetableMan wrote:
What is the solution to this conflict?
Let Russia bleed out and run out of resources to continue any agression.
In the meanwhile, supplying anti-aircraft so Ukrainians can protect their cities.


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10 Mar 2022, 5:34 pm

Well Russia has made sure that no one will trust them now.


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10 Mar 2022, 5:35 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
There were oral agreements to cease expansion of NATO past Germany, but no formal ones. That is correct. But that still doesn't negate the fact that expanding NATO towards Russia's borders was dangerous business. Imagine if the U.S. had foreign armies and missles lined up along its border with Mexico? Do you think we wouldn't react in a similar fashion?

Nobody's hands are clean in this, unfortunately. I will never condone invasions of the type Putin has perpetrated, but full context of how we got to this dangerous place needs to be discussed.


I tiny little point here.

Most of these later NATO members were violated by unlawful Soviet invasion after WWII.
Once again, these eastern nations had good reason to fear Russian imperialism wanting to regain its domination over them.

Consider:
If a mafia type thug like pootin wasn't in power, with his territorial ambitions, these tentions in all probability wouldn't exist.
Can you seriously tell me that pootin doesn't want to restore Russia's former glory?
Seriously?



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10 Mar 2022, 5:35 pm

Mikah wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
What's keeping Russia so segregated from the rest of Europe?


It's a good question. The primary answer is that the U.S. and much of Europe desires it to be so. Putin actually asked to join NATO in his early days and made noises about greater economic integration with the EU. Many Russians are enamoured with Europe and would love to be closer to it than they are. The reason Russia was denied NATO membership is the same reason European powers (often with the U.S. hissing in their ears like Gríma) have nixed or refused to even consider sort of real economic integration. It is because it would tilt the balance of power in directions many European countries and especially the U.S. would not want.

For Europe, the balance of power would shift further eastwards into a sort of German-Russian industrial superbase, such is the enormous size, material wealth and economic potential of Russia. This is an unattractive prospect for many EU member states, and even the UK, already wilting at the edges of the German economic reich EU unified market. For the U.S. geopolitically, it would shift the balance of power on the entire Eurasian continent, away from its satrapy Germany and its EU orbiters, over which it has reasonably tight control where it matters and cordial relations otherwise. There is good reason that one of the longest standing foreign policy goals of the U.S. has always been to prevent any sort of Russian-German rapprochement, because they would be a major contender for American influence across Eurasia, perhaps even leading to American isolation.

Very short version: it's that old friend, divide and conquer.

You completely ignore the fundamental differences between Russia and the West: democracy and transparency.
Russia did not join NATO once they learned the alliance would require to know their military systems and practices.
They are also a state where political opposition gets poisoned to near-death and you can get 15 years in jail for talking about the war in undesired way (that includes calling it a war).
They are also a state that annected territories from another states and invaded another souvereign state.

So, why do you think Russia is isolated in Europe, again?


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10 Mar 2022, 5:37 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Well Russia has made sure that no one will trust them now.

We (east Europeans) have been saying it at least since 2008...


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10 Mar 2022, 5:40 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
At what point is Putin doing what makes sense?


It makes perfect sense. Imagine if Quebec or some other part of Canada became independent, then entered a military alliance with the Russian Federation, the Russians salivating at the prospect of planting weapon systems along the northern U.S. border. At what point in that story would the U.S. intervene? Would the U.S. respect the sovereignty of said independent Canadians? Or would the Munroe Doctrine still stand? The answer of course is the hypothetical independent Canadians desperate to be buddies with Russia would find themselves subject to torrents of propaganda and money and NGOs f*****g around, CIA-lead coup-d'etats and perhaps even direct military action, which is where Ukraine now finds itself.


So Putin is protecting Russia from being attacked by NATO via Ukraine?


With russia having the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world?
Of cause, you silly billy. <satire> :mrgreen: