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ASPartOfMe
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03 Nov 2023, 4:13 am

Now is a worse time than the Great Depression, World War Two and the Cold War?

Are people more depressed today because they are more fragile or were they just as depressed if not more then but the stigma was so great people did not talk about it?


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blitzkrieg
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03 Nov 2023, 6:29 am

cyberdad wrote:
blitzkrieg wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
\
I think the article (and the doctor that is referred to) - relies on an understanding of the reader that not everything can be contained within one approach to the theories of why people are depressed, now, versus 100 years ago, or on any topic.

It is easy to dismiss something because it is incomplete in its scope, but then that would lead to people dismissing most things.


I am not dismissing that mental health is a major issue in 2023, but heres the thing. I actually think it's obvious that standard of living alleviates most of the life stressors our great great grandparents had to endure in 1923. People living in all nations are much more prosperous (on average) than their predecessors most of whom were eeking out a living in order to survive.

The issues/things that are causing stress in 2023 are now more varied. But are they quantifiably and qualitatively the same as 1923?? How could the author possibly know they are comparable :roll:


Actually, the lifetime (relative) earnings of millennials and gen-z are lower than that of boomers.

Millennials are/were the first generation of have experienced a genuine decline in wealth versus their parents.

I would say that a lot of countries in the world, previously held back in some ways by western countries have now progressed a lot independently and globalization has had the effect of lowering the living standards of people in the U.S and western Europe particularly, as the years progress and persons in lesser developed countries became less easy to exploit for the gains of the western lifestyle (and as their leaders and nation states become more strong relative to the former western setup) etc.



blitzkrieg
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03 Nov 2023, 6:31 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Now is a worse time than the Great Depression, World War Two and the Cold War?

Are people more depressed today because they are more fragile or were they just as depressed if not more then but the stigma was so great people did not talk about it?


The years following world war two were some of the most egalitarian in terms of the gap between rich and poor. Right from the 1950's until the 1980's, at least in the UK.

Obviously the great depression wasn't anything nice to bear witness to or to participate in. World war two even less so.



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03 Nov 2023, 7:11 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:
I would say that a lot of countries in the world, previously held back in some ways by western countries have now progressed a lot independently and globalization has had the effect of lowering the living standards of people in the U.S and western Europe particularly, as the years progress and persons in lesser developed countries became less easy to exploit for the gains of the western lifestyle (and as their leaders and nation states become more strong relative to the former western setup) etc.


Ok that makes more sense than "the last 100 years". Yes, the previous generation (yes) the percentage living below the poverty line making ends meet might have been less (the disparity between the richest and poorest was less). But for the middle and upper middle class I suspect the type of stressors leading to depression are more different than the previous generation. Social media, the increase in men not being able to find partners, lack of employment security, changes in values are but a few of the things that might be triggering depression and anxiety in 2023.



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03 Nov 2023, 7:24 pm

A lot of this stems from social isolation, and I think a big part of that comes from the fact that digital interaction is becoming so prominent. It's obviously not a bad thing that people can talk online, but I don't think online communities can completely satisfy most people's needs for socialization. We need to feel like we get some level of approval and acceptance from the people around us. Pseudonyms on screens can help some... but they can't do everything.

And unfortunately, this problem seems to keep making itself worse. Social media now consumes a great deal of time and resources, both for groups and individuals. I'm skeptical that this has made the world much better. We can get information instantly, but a lot of it is of poor quality and even accurate information isn't necessarily helpful or useful. A person should have a basic idea of what's going on in the world, but past a certain point, all this knowledge just becomes trivia.

Thus, because we spend so much time in digital interaction (like what I'm doing right now, heyo!), there's a major opportunity cost in real-world interaction. Many would blame the dog-eat-dog type of capitalism practiced in the US, and that certainly plays a big role. But I'm increasingly of the opinion that social media is intrinsically harmful if used past a certain point (and the big platforms all designed to be addictive).

We would still have the serious problems without social media. But I think a lot of us would be a little happier.



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03 Nov 2023, 7:30 pm

Minder wrote:
A lot of this stems from social isolation, and I think a big part of that comes from the fact that digital interaction is becoming so prominent. It's obviously not a bad thing that people can talk online, but I don't think online communities can completely satisfy most people's needs for socialization. We need to feel like we get some level of approval and acceptance from the people around us. Pseudonyms on screens can help some... but they can't do everything.

And unfortunately, this problem seems to keep making itself worse. Social media now consumes a great deal of time and resources, both for groups and individuals. I'm skeptical that this has made the world much better. We can get information instantly, but a lot of it is of poor quality and even accurate information isn't necessarily helpful or useful. A person should have a basic idea of what's going on in the world, but past a certain point, all this knowledge just becomes trivia.

Thus, because we spend so much time in digital interaction (like what I'm doing right now, heyo!), there's a major opportunity cost in real-world interaction. Many would blame the dog-eat-dog type of capitalism practiced in the US, and that certainly plays a big role. But I'm increasingly of the opinion that social media is intrinsically harmful if used past a certain point (and the big platforms all designed to be addictive).

We would still have the serious problems without social media. But I think a lot of us would be a little happier.


Yes, the future for the next generation can be seen in places like Japan or South Korea where social isolation and dependence on new technology is giving rise to greater levels of mental health deterioration. Even for the social butterflies who have friends and social support, there is an increase in addiction to prescription medication, alcoholism and narcotics. Life stressors are creating a mental health crisis but they are much more different to what our grandparents went through in the 1950s.



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03 Nov 2023, 7:52 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Minder wrote:
A lot of this stems from social isolation, and I think a big part of that comes from the fact that digital interaction is becoming so prominent. It's obviously not a bad thing that people can talk online, but I don't think online communities can completely satisfy most people's needs for socialization. We need to feel like we get some level of approval and acceptance from the people around us. Pseudonyms on screens can help some... but they can't do everything.

And unfortunately, this problem seems to keep making itself worse. Social media now consumes a great deal of time and resources, both for groups and individuals. I'm skeptical that this has made the world much better. We can get information instantly, but a lot of it is of poor quality and even accurate information isn't necessarily helpful or useful. A person should have a basic idea of what's going on in the world, but past a certain point, all this knowledge just becomes trivia.

Thus, because we spend so much time in digital interaction (like what I'm doing right now, heyo!), there's a major opportunity cost in real-world interaction. Many would blame the dog-eat-dog type of capitalism practiced in the US, and that certainly plays a big role. But I'm increasingly of the opinion that social media is intrinsically harmful if used past a certain point (and the big platforms all designed to be addictive).

We would still have the serious problems without social media. But I think a lot of us would be a little happier.


Yes, the future for the next generation can be seen in places like Japan or South Korea where social isolation and dependence on new technology is giving rise to greater levels of mental health deterioration. Even for the social butterflies who have friends and social support, there is an increase in addiction to prescription medication, alcoholism and narcotics. Life stressors are creating a mental health crisis but they are much more different to what our grandparents went through in the 1950s.


It is quite different from previous eras. The modern lack of community makes it much harder to withstand these trials. Some people can fall back on family, but not everyone can.

Though interestingly, young people in the US appear to be reducing their alcohol intake. I'm not really young anymore, but I've also reduced mine.

The flipside is that just because you have an RL community, it doesn't mean you have a good one. And this goes back to why I think '50s nostalgia is deeply misguided; many people were miserable or terrified because they were at the whims of social conventions they couldn't live up to (which I think many of us here are familiar with). People who weren't white, weren't hetero/cis, weren't men, etc.

Still, I don't think it's possible for most people (there are exceptions) to be happy or fulfilled unless they have support from friends and loved ones of some sort in real life. Social media can make it much harder to do this simply because of how much of a user's time it can eat up. Part of me genuinely thinks that, in 20-30 years time, we'll look back on '10s/'20s social media use in much the same way we now look back on cigarette smoking in the '50s/'60s.



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04 Nov 2023, 2:59 am

Minder wrote:
[Social media can make it much harder to do this simply because of how much of a user's time it can eat up. Part of me genuinely thinks that, in 20-30 years time, we'll look back on '10s/'20s social media use in much the same way we now look back on cigarette smoking in the '50s/'60s.


Social media will be very very hard to give up, It's not just the youngsters, even older people are spending their day bent over their phones. But humans evolve and we will be at some point fused to our phones.



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04 Nov 2023, 8:58 am

WWII was pretty bleak when Hitler was killing 6 million people for no good reason and taking over Europe in a quest for world domination.

Yeah things are tough now but they were worse then IMO.



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04 Nov 2023, 9:01 am

blitzkrieg wrote:
I would say that a lot of countries in the world, previously held back in some ways by western countries have now progressed a lot independently and globalization has had the effect of lowering the living standards of people in the U.S and western Europe particularly, as the years progress and persons in lesser developed countries became less easy to exploit for the gains of the western lifestyle (and as their leaders and nation states become more strong relative to the former western setup) etc.


cyberdad wrote:
I suspect the type of stressors leading to depression are more different than the previous generation. Social media, the increase in men not being able to find partners, lack of employment security, changes in values are but a few of the things that might be triggering depression and anxiety in 2023.


I agree with all of these points.



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04 Nov 2023, 9:02 am

Minder wrote:
A lot of this stems from social isolation, and I think a big part of that comes from the fact that digital interaction is becoming so prominent. It's obviously not a bad thing that people can talk online, but I don't think online communities can completely satisfy most people's needs for socialization. We need to feel like we get some level of approval and acceptance from the people around us. Pseudonyms on screens can help some... but they can't do everything.

And unfortunately, this problem seems to keep making itself worse. Social media now consumes a great deal of time and resources, both for groups and individuals. I'm skeptical that this has made the world much better. We can get information instantly, but a lot of it is of poor quality and even accurate information isn't necessarily helpful or useful. A person should have a basic idea of what's going on in the world, but past a certain point, all this knowledge just becomes trivia.

Thus, because we spend so much time in digital interaction (like what I'm doing right now, heyo!), there's a major opportunity cost in real-world interaction. Many would blame the dog-eat-dog type of capitalism practiced in the US, and that certainly plays a big role. But I'm increasingly of the opinion that social media is intrinsically harmful if used past a certain point (and the big platforms all designed to be addictive).

We would still have the serious problems without social media. But I think a lot of us would be a little happier.


I totally agree.

Social media is largely depressing.



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04 Nov 2023, 1:02 pm


"Dr Gold said: “We now really know much more about the basic mechanisms that drive depression. People used to think that there was a chemical imbalance in the serotonin system, and that’s why people became depressed. But that’s not true.”
“Really, we now know that depression is a neurodegenerative disease. There’s actually a loss of tissue in key sites in the stress system, that encode the clinical and biochemical manifestations of depression.

“For instance, one of the areas that influences self-esteem which is markedly decreased in patients with depression, it regulates anxiety, which is increased in patients with depression. It diminishes the capacity to experience pleasure, which is a manifestation of depression and it causes abnormalities in sleep, increased appetite, decreased interest in sex and increased development of stress hormones, that damage the brain.

“What causes loss of tissue stress? – we now know that stress increases inflammation in the brain that damages and destroys tissue. So that depression in many respects, we now know, is partially an inflammatory disease.”

Dr Gold’s top three tips for helping to reduce depression are plenty of moderate exercise, regular sleep and good social contact with friends and family."

The Article Was Behind A Pay Wall; Helpful Hint, Copy and Paste it Real Quick to Your Local Computer/Phone
to Read It, Before the Message Comes Up About it Being Behind a Pay-Wall; Gotta Scroll Quick to do it, Hehe;

Anyway, Considering the CDC Reports that Close to a Third of Grade School Girls Have Considered Suicide,

And 57 Percent of those Teenage Girls Report Life Limiting Depression; Also, Considering Historically they
Are Reported to Have Best Measures of Well Being of All Human Demographic Generations and Now Instead of

A 'U Shaped' Trajectory of Well Being With Youth Better; Middle Age Worse; and Older Ages With Better Well Being Again;

True, There is Objective Evidence That Does Show We Are in Uncharted Territory, at Least Now in the United States;

What Children
Experience
in Palestine,

Now,

For Instance,
Is Far Beyond

Most of Our Abilities

to Comprehend over
Here with Our 'First World Problems'...

Never the Less, First World Problems are Real Problems;

As the Article Suggests, Humans Are Not Well Evolved For A

Modernity of Sedentary Screen Life, Separated From Each Other

The Way We Are Now; Separated More Often From Any Product We Create

to Share and Enhance the Life of Others that Brings More Intrinsic Rewards too...

Currently, i Can't Imagine Being Happier than i am at age 63; Yet Tomorrow Hasn't Arrived Now...

Historically, at 47, i was noted to Have A Worst Case of Depression and Anxiety By an Air Force Reserve Major

Psychiatrist, Well-Versed in Desert Storm Combat Fatigue too; Yes, For me it Was Unrelenting Chronic to Acute

Stress in the Work-Place, Getting put in 5 Job Changes And Promotions in 5 Years to Keep the Golden Handcuffs

of Life Long Federal Retirement Benefits, the Goal; Additionally, Of Course Autistic Burn-out as It Isn't easy to Manage,

Supervise, And Administer Programs; Meanwhile, Helping Peers and Supervisors Do Their Jobs, Who Then Were Not

As Proficient at Systemizing

Problem Solving Like me;

Oh Dear Lord, the Social Part

is What Truly Nearly Killed me;

Going Far Past What my Capacity
Then Was For That; And Of Course

What 40 Folks Once Did in Our Administrative

Office With the Help of Information Technology,

Just A Handful of Folks Expected to Do That Attached to Screens...

It Depends on If a Person is Able to Adapt to the Environment of Now;

Obviously, Not All Folks are able to Do it, Depending on the Environment;

Financially Independent Now,

No Longer Slave to

Any Other Employer;

It's A Breeze to Be Free as
The Wind and Happy Sunshine Below...

On the Other Hand, Some Folks Biggest
Fear is Retiring and Not Having a Purpose

Someone Else Gives to Their Life For Meaning...

Do It Yourself,
i Find Works
Best for me at least...

Took a Lot of Soul
Searching Yet When You
Arrive You Might Just Staycation

in a Better Place now. We Can't Really

Fully Assess the Mental Health of Folks

A Century Ago; Yet What We Do Understand

Is Social Connections, Fully Experiencing the Warmth

That Actually Lessens Anxiety and Reduces Pain Per

The Real Healing Power of the Neurohormone Oxytocin

Is the Number
One Overall

Source

of Happiness...

Text on Screens Provides

About 7 Percent of What
Full Face-to-Face Human Interaction Brings...

True Houston; We've Got First World Problems

Also Spreading Like Wildfire to the Rest of the Globe.

Key: Master the Tools;

Do Not Become the Tools;

And Do Not Become Used/Ruled By The Tools...

i Appreciate all the Tools Now; Yet They Are Literally my Slaves...

As The Great Rock in Roll Band Styx Suggested For me at Least

"These
Are the
Best of Times"

Not Surprising Really since

The Oldest Generation Beyond
77 Are Reported to have the Highest

Levels of Well Being, Including Health
Versus all the Other Younger Generations...

It's True, There is Every Opportunity for me to excel past that...

Yet Of Course, For Now at Least, i Have A Rather Overflowing Chalice View of Life, Far From Empty..:)


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05 Nov 2023, 7:11 pm

Minder wrote:
Still, I don't think it's possible for most people (there are exceptions) to be happy or fulfilled unless they have support from friends and loved ones of some sort in real life. .


Social support definitely helps, but keep in mind that many people who have social support still face challenges
1. Bullying (both at school and work)
2. social comparison (people can fall into a deep abyss simply because their old/current friends are doing much better than they are
3. lack of personal fulfilment - even friends/family can't help if you struggle to find meaning in life. Unfortunately being educated can make this worse than better.

These are just a few



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05 Nov 2023, 7:26 pm

Minuteman wrote:
WWII was pretty bleak when Hitler was killing 6 million people for no good reason and taking over Europe in a quest for world domination.

Yeah things are tough now but they were worse then IMO.


Hitler killed a lot more than 6 million people.

Quote:
Most estimates place the total number of deaths during the Second World War at around 70-85 million people. Approximately 17 million of these deaths (20-25 percent of the total) were due to crimes against humanity carried out by the Nazi regime in Europe.


https://www.statista.com/statistics/107 ... tims-wwii/


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Minder
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05 Nov 2023, 7:30 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Minder wrote:
Still, I don't think it's possible for most people (there are exceptions) to be happy or fulfilled unless they have support from friends and loved ones of some sort in real life. .


Social support definitely helps, but keep in mind that many people who have social support still face challenges
1. Bullying (both at school and work)
2. social comparison (people can fall into a deep abyss simply because their old/current friends are doing much better than they are
3. lack of personal fulfilment - even friends/family can't help if you struggle to find meaning in life. Unfortunately being educated can make this worse than better.

These are just a few


Of course, but all those things happen even without social support. People you care about, and who care about you, make one and three easier to deal with. Two is a little trickier since that might be part of your community.

Still, the isolation that social media (and technology in general) encourages is fundamentally unhealthy. I don't think we can (or should) get rid of computers and the Internet. But I do think we need to re-examine the way we engage with it. Social media that emphasizes social competition and constant content production make things worse for most of us.



cyberdad
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05 Nov 2023, 9:21 pm

Minder wrote:
Still, the isolation that social media (and technology in general) encourages is fundamentally unhealthy. I don't think we can (or should) get rid of computers and the Internet. But I do think we need to re-examine the way we engage with it. Social media that emphasizes social competition and constant content production make things worse for most of us.


I think it's too late for that.

One intergenerational thing is how busy people claim to be. Being in a predetermined physical space with another human requires extra special effort which I never found to be a problem in the pre-internet age.