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Russia could use chemical weapons in Ukraine

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Mikah
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10 Mar 2022, 6:25 pm

magz wrote:
And I am repeating once again: do you have any close experience of living in "Russian zone of influence" to compare it to your life in UK?
I sometimes think people in the old First World take really a lot for granted and don't realize how much can be lost.


Not in an ex-Soviet republic, no. But I have lived briefly in two countries that would be considered lacking in the democracy and transparency departments. Before this conversation goes further, I'd like to check. You are aware that in 2014, when Russia, playing by the rules, offered Ukraine a sweeter deal than the EU, the U.S. overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine in a staged and managed mob coup d'etat? To which the Russians responded by annexing Crimea?


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Misslizard
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10 Mar 2022, 6:37 pm

There are different opinions on that.
https://www.economist.com/the-economist ... 14-achieve
Mr. Zuesse claims we overthrew the Ukraine government.He also sees America as the greatest evil on the planet.
I will believe the experience of people who live in the region and have first hand experience.


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Pepe
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10 Mar 2022, 6:40 pm

Mikah wrote:
magz wrote:
You completely ignore the fundamental differences between Russia and the West: democracy and transparency.


I don't ignore them, they just don't matter in the Grand Game. All this democracy and transparency crap is just propaganda, demonisation and rationalisation. The western alliance doesn't care about these things if you are "on their side" that day. You can already think of several bloodthirsty anti-democratic and opaque regimes who are best buddies with Western countries can you not? Worse things are happening in Yemen than in Ukraine, our eternal friends the journalist-mincing Saudis are turning that country into paste. Nobody cares.

magz wrote:
They are also a state where political opposition gets poisoned to near-death and you can get 15 years in jail for talking about the war in undesired way (that includes calling it a war).


Zelenksy the hero shut down opposition TV stations only last year and imprisoned a political opponent on charges of treason. Again, nobody cares. It isn't what is really driving this division between Russia and Europe.

magz wrote:
So, why do you think Russia is isolated in Europe, again?


I stand by my analysis.


Bottom line:
Are you saying you agree with pootin's invasion of Ukraine?



Mikah
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10 Mar 2022, 6:46 pm

Pepe wrote:
Bottom line:
Are you saying you agree with pootin's invasion of Ukraine?


I think any country, especially the U.S. would be doing exactly the same thing in his shoes. If some people here think that the U.S. should have let Cuba house Soviet missiles way back when because of muh Cuban sovereignty, I will take their argument seriously, otherwise I can only assume their minds have been devoured by propaganda and ignorance.


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Misslizard
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10 Mar 2022, 6:47 pm

We didn’t invade Russia when that happened, but who knows what would have occurred if they had stayed there.


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Last edited by Misslizard on 10 Mar 2022, 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pepe
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10 Mar 2022, 6:48 pm

Misslizard wrote:
/\ https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... n-his-rule


Thanx for that.

Quote:
The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin, who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”


I gather pootin simply ended the prospect of joining NATO there and then?
If so, big mistake for all concerned.



r00tb33r
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10 Mar 2022, 6:52 pm

Pepe wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
/\ https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... n-his-rule


Thanx for that.

Quote:
The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin, who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”


I gather pootin simply ended the prospect of joining NATO there and then?
If so, big mistake for all concerned.

I'm glad someone brought this up. The truth is, Putin brought the 90s democratic Russia to the negotiating table with the West, but they were shunned and turned away. I think it was a mental turning point for Russian politics.



Mikah
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10 Mar 2022, 6:54 pm

Misslizard wrote:
We didn’t invade Russia when that happened.


Because soft power, diplomacy and threats worked that time. If Cuba had backed down and then the Soviets had immediately overthrown the Cuban government and installed the We Luv Russia Missile Fanatic Workers Party to rule instead it could well have lead to an invasion of Cuba.


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Pepe
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10 Mar 2022, 6:56 pm

Mikah wrote:
magz wrote:
And I am repeating once again: do you have any close experience of living in "Russian zone of influence" to compare it to your life in UK?
I sometimes think people in the old First World take really a lot for granted and don't realize how much can be lost.


Not in an ex-Soviet republic, no. But I have lived briefly in two countries that would be considered lacking in the democracy and transparency departments. Before this conversation goes further, I'd like to check. You are aware that in 2014, when Russia, playing by the rules, offered Ukraine a sweeter deal than the EU, the U.S. [u]overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine in a staged and managed mob coup d'etat?[/u] To which the Russians responded by annexing Crimea?


Link?



Misslizard
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10 Mar 2022, 6:58 pm

Nobody likes an invader.
https://youtu.be/kINLxNxTMJ0


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Misslizard
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10 Mar 2022, 7:01 pm

Mikah wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
We didn’t invade Russia when that happened.


Because soft power, diplomacy and threats worked that time. If Cuba had backed down and then the Soviets had immediately overthrown the Cuban government and installed the We Luv Russia Missile Fanatic Workers Party to rule instead it could well have lead to an invasion of Cuba.

Possible, but no guarantee it would work with Putin.
Cuba wasn’t interested in acquiring more landmass.


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Pepe
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10 Mar 2022, 7:03 pm

Misslizard wrote:
There are different opinions on that.
https://www.economist.com/the-economist ... 14-achieve
Mr. Zuesse claims we overthrew the Ukraine government.He also sees America as the greatest evil on the planet.
I will believe the experience of people who live in the region and have first hand experience.


I have no trouble believing the quote I am posting:
Quote:
The first victory came when protesters at Maidan square in Kyiv, Ukraine’s capital, ousted a thuggish Russian-backed president, Viktor Yanukovych. In four years Mr Yanukovych and his friends looted around $100bn from a country with an economy the size of Nebraska’s.


pootin is a thug, a gangster and a psychopathic killer.
It would be no surprise he would be supporting governments that have similar low morality quotients.
Belarus government, anyone?



Pepe
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10 Mar 2022, 7:10 pm

Mikah wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Bottom line:
Are you saying you agree with pootin's invasion of Ukraine?


I think any country, especially the U.S. would be doing exactly the same thing in his shoes. If some people here think that the U.S. should have let Cuba house Soviet missiles way back when because of muh Cuban sovereignty, I will take their argument seriously, otherwise I can only assume their minds have been devoured by propaganda and ignorance.


Firstly, if you think I am easily affected by political propaganda, you don't know me very well.

Secondly, you seem to be comparing apples with oranges.
If what has been posted above is correct, a corrupt Ukrainian government was overthrown and pootin had a hissyfit about his corrupt mates taken off the money teat.

Assuming the above is correct, is there any wonder why the new Ukrainian government turned towards the west?

Assuming the above is correct, pootin only had himself to blame.



Pepe
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10 Mar 2022, 7:13 pm

r00tb33r wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
/\ https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... n-his-rule


Thanx for that.

Quote:
The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin, who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”


I gather pootin simply ended the prospect of joining NATO there and then?
If so, big mistake for all concerned.

I'm glad someone brought this up. The truth is, Putin brought the 90s democratic Russia to the negotiating table with the West, but they were shunned and turned away. I think it was a mental turning point for Russian politics.


Link?

From what I can see, pootin simply didn't want to accept the conditions of being part of NATO.



kraftiekortie
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10 Mar 2022, 7:17 pm

One thing should be remembered:

Putin changed the Russian constitution----so that he could remain in power until at least 2034.

He's been in power 22 years now. In 2034, he would have been in power 35 years. He just doesn't want to peacefully cede power (rather like Trump!)

He's being Orwellian when he declares that a "war" or "invasion" is not going on. And when he ordains 15-year prison sentences for anyone who just looks at the facts of the matter.



Pepe
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10 Mar 2022, 7:17 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Nobody likes an invader.
https://youtu.be/kINLxNxTMJ0


The British (England) behaved abominably throughout history.