Tears for Ukraine, Sanctions for Russia, Yawns for Yemen.

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cyberdad
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03 Apr 2022, 3:50 am

magz wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
This does not diminish the suffering of average people in Ukraine (nobody wants this either)...but....is anyone talking about sanctions against Saudi Arabia? the answer is no because if you stop buying oil from Saudi Arabia...
The answer is no because if not Saudis, the alternatives for Yemen are the Houthis and Al Kaida. Which one would you like to win thanks to Western sanctions? And what would their victory mean for human rights in Yemen?


That justifies the Saudis killing almost 400,000 civilians by the end of the year?
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/ ... -stops-now
Sounds like the US are turning a blind eye to genocide

Using your logic then How about Israel decides to invade Palestine and kill 200-300 thousand Palestinians because isn't HAMAS a terrorist organisation?

Infact isn't Putin saying the Azov Brigade is a terrorist organisation?



magz
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03 Apr 2022, 4:26 am

cyberdad wrote:
magz wrote:
1488 is not commonly known or used in East Europe, it has a meaning only in Anglophone countries. This grafitti has been done most likely by someone wanting Westerners, in particular American Democrats, to hate Ukraine.
It's a tactics Russians have been using before in the region.


That's a bit of a stretch isn't it? Russian soldiers getting shot at by Ukrainians have time to grab paint and scrawl propaganda graffitti painting Ukrainians as racist using obscure far right symbols? I mean really.

It's not like Ukrainain kids don't have internet right. I I think its more likely local kids cheering their Azov brigade.
No, it isn't. It's something that has been previously done here many times, even before the war. Russians were caught writing anti-Lithuanian grafitti in Polish and so on. It is their regular tactics.

How do you determine when this grafitti appeared? Who made this photo and where did they publish it? Why? If you don't know it, admit it.

It would be a stretch to expect Ukrainian kids to search the internet when bombs are dropping on their heads for an American neo-nazi symbol than none of their neighbours would even notice, as it's just a number. Here, "1488" written on a wall makes people think "was there some important historical event in 1488 that I forgot since school?"
But it's not a stretch to expect a Russian provocateur to search for an American neo-nazi symbol that American Democrats would instantly read and hate. Then, to paint it over a dead body, make a picture and publish.


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magz
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03 Apr 2022, 4:55 am

Yemen war was started by the Houthis, not the Saudis.

What in your opinion should the world do about Yemen? Help the Houthis win?


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The_Face_of_Boo
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03 Apr 2022, 11:43 am

Al Jazeera is a Qatari institution; and Qatar is in bed with the muslim brotherhood.
Meaning they’re very biased when it comes to Saudi Arabia ans the Yemen war.



The_Face_of_Boo
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03 Apr 2022, 11:47 am

cyberdad wrote:
magz wrote:
China is not ready to reach for Taiwan yet. They will be some day.
The "free world" needs to prepare for a possibility of sanctioning them in the meantime. An economy that can easily collapse is not a good economy.


Easy for you to say. Australia relies heavily on China.



And that’s a wrong and lazy economy, it’s what magz is saying.

Time is showing us that every country should work in reaching self sufficiency.



cyberdad
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03 Apr 2022, 4:13 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
magz wrote:
China is not ready to reach for Taiwan yet. They will be some day.
The "free world" needs to prepare for a possibility of sanctioning them in the meantime. An economy that can easily collapse is not a good economy.


Easy for you to say. Australia relies heavily on China.



And that’s a wrong and lazy economy, it’s what magz is saying.

Time is showing us that every country should work in reaching self sufficiency.


We are starting to make amends - never too late
https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/ ... l-ceremony



cyberdad
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03 Apr 2022, 4:19 pm

magz wrote:
But it's not a stretch to expect a Russian provocateur to search for an American neo-nazi symbol that American Democrats would instantly read and hate. Then, to paint it over a dead body, make a picture and publish.


TBH you cant prove either way. But...the painter has scrawled a lot of graffiti using two different colours and much of it is nonsense so again I am skeptical a bored Russian soldier would waste their time or be allowed by their commanding officer to engage in graffiti in the middle of a war zone where thete are likely snipers.



magz
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03 Apr 2022, 4:42 pm

Not "bored". It's intentional. It's meaningless to the locals but enfuriating US Democrats.
When you have X and Y unfriendly to Russia, fabricating content that would enrage X on Y is a regular tactics used by Russia. We've been having years of it here, it's common.


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cyberdad
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04 Apr 2022, 1:50 am

Ukrainian protestors have used the symbol
https://twitter.com/tristanmasat/status ... 4442434560

Image



magz
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04 Apr 2022, 2:26 am

Extreme nationalists were a small but rather visible group back in 2014.
That was one of the reasons the Provisional Government formed back then was strongly contested and they had to organize new elections as soon as it was technically possible. They did and they gave the power to the elected parties.

2014 was 8 years ago and, along with two elections (neither won by nationalists), plenty of things happened in Ukraine since then. Most of all, they have been attacked and their territories were taken by another state.
I wonder if you're even capable of imagining what it means to be invaded...

To get an idea of what Ukrainians want politically, don't rely on troll feed from twitter. I'm sure if someone wanted to make Australians look like they were homicidal fascists, they could find plenty of "evidence" like that.
To get a truer picture, look at their OSCE-observed elections results.

TLDR: Stop victim blaming.


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cyberdad
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04 Apr 2022, 3:37 am

magz wrote:
TLDR: Stop victim blaming.


I am just pointing out news articles indicating that there are more victims than Ukrainians and the people you are calling victims are also victimising these other innocent people.

I am also trying to understand this fascination thousands of Ukrainians have with Nazism. If this is forbidden to discuss on this forum I will stop talking about it.



magz
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04 Apr 2022, 3:44 am

You are victim blaming.

Imagine China invaded Australia. They murder, rape, loot and create artificial famine by blocking any humanitarian aid to cities.

And then, some guy from Canada come up and say, hey but Australians are bad, look, this is their neo-nazi organization, this is a racist incident recorded in Australia, oh, and look at their history of what they did to the indigenous people (this part Ukraine is free of, they are indigenous themselves, but I'm sure if Australians were under the spotlight, it would gain a lot of attention).
So, you know, Australians suffer, sure, but The Base!

This is what you're doing.


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cyberdad
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04 Apr 2022, 4:40 am

So when US, European and other western countries do documentary videos on the rise of the far right in Ukraine is this also Russian propaganda?



Please note, I am not blaming the Ukrainian civilians, this must be horrible for them. But I am wondering why the rest of the world has to suffer for this war and not Yemen or other conflicts involving brown people. That is the title of this thread.



magz
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04 Apr 2022, 4:54 am

Keeping them in spotlight is very likely inspired by some specific group - you could make similar documentaries probably in every country. They weren't made by Russian propaganda but they are extensively used by them, to create an impression that this is somehow mainstream in Ukraine.
Look at election results to see what is actually mainstream in Ukraine.

Why for Ukraine not for Yemen has been answered countless times in this thread. Because in Yemen the fighting parties are: Saudi-led coalition, the Houthis, Al-Kaida. Which one in your opinion we should support?


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cyberdad
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04 Apr 2022, 5:43 am

magz wrote:
Keeping them in spotlight is very likely inspired by some specific group - you could make similar documentaries probably in every country. They weren't made by Russian propaganda but they are extensively used by them, to create an impression that this is somehow mainstream in Ukraine.
Look at election results to see what is actually mainstream in Ukraine.


I have come across this issue of the popularity of neo-nazism in Ukraine in nearly every news agency (even Fox news).

Reuters is the most impartial news agency I know of and they don't spread Russian propaganda,

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohe ... SKBN1GV2TY

According to them and I quote

When Russian President Vladimir Putin’s seizure of Crimea four years ago first exposed the decrepit condition of Ukraine’s armed forces, right-wing militias such as Azov and Right Sector stepped into the breach, fending off the Russian-backed separatists while Ukraine’s regular military regrouped. Though, as a result, many Ukrainians continue to regard the militias with gratitude and admiration, the more extreme among these groups promote an intolerant and illiberal ideology that will endanger Ukraine in the long term. Since the Crimean crisis, the militias have been formally integrated into Ukraine’s armed forces, but some have resisted full integration: Azov, for example, runs its own children’s training camp, and the careers section instructs recruits who wish to transfer to Azov from a regular military unit.

According to Freedom House’s Ukraine project director Matthew Schaaf, “numerous organized radical right-wing groups exist in Ukraine, and while the volunteer battalions may have been officially integrated into state structures, some of them have since spun off political and non-profit structures to implement their vision.” Schaaf noted that “an increase in patriotic discourse supporting Ukraine in its conflict with Russia has coincided with an apparent increase in both public hate speech, sometimes by public officials and magnified by the media, as well as violence towards vulnerable groups such as the LGBT community,” an observation that is supported by a recent Council of Europe study.

Ukraine has experienced a wave of unchecked vigilantism. Institute Respublica, a local pro-democracy NGO, reported that activists are frequently harassed by vigilantes when holding legal meetings or rallies related to politically-controversial positions, such as the promotion of LGBT rights or opposition to the war. Azov and other militias have attacked anti-fascist demonstrations, city council meetings, media outlets, art exhibitions, foreign students and Roma.


Brutal attacks this month on International Women’s Day marches in several Ukrainian cities prompted an unusually forceful statement from Amnesty International, which warned that "the Ukrainian state is rapidly losing its monopoly on violence.”

Kiev’s recent efforts to incorporate independent armed groups into its regular armed forces, as well as a continuing national sense of indebtedness to the militias for their defense of the homeland,

This would suggest (according to unbiased and impartial sources) that the right wing militia problem is much worse than any other western country. Two things strike me, Firstly the integration of right wing militias into the regular forces (excluding Azov). The second echoes what I have posted from other sources earlier that Azov are targeting foreign students which is exactly what the students complained when they managed to escape Ukraine.

The war crimes committed by Russian soldiers must be reported....but what is happening inside the Ukrainian army and defense force should not be ignored. The last time this happened was in Afghanistan where the US backed the Mujahadeen to fight the Russians. The Mujahadeen thanked America by attacking them later when they evolved into the Taliban.



magz
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04 Apr 2022, 5:45 am

If you were invaded, you could only hope that all your little Rittenhouses & co would support your army...


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